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USB audio glitches / errors caused by 5600 XT GPU?

Postby Will_m » Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:09 pm

I'm using an RME UFX+, its comes with a little control panel where it reports USB errors with a simple counter. I'm getting lots of errors reported that are audible as dropouts in and glitches in audio that sound a but like a CD player skipping.

The errors seem to occur when something graphical happens, so opening a plugin window like Omnisphere, opening a web browser tab, bringing up the video player in Cubase etc. i thought it might be the graphics card so I swapped out the AMD 5600 XT for my old GTX 1060 and it seems to have made the issue go away.

If this is the case then is there anything settings wise I could look at with the AMD GPU? I've never had a GPU cause audio issues like this. If it can't be solved I'm looking at getting something else instead, probably Nvidia as that's closer to what I have at present. The RTX 2060 series seems to be about equivalent to the 5600xt.

I'v tried RME support but they just won't respond. The UFX+ is great when it works but seems incredibly picky about what it will work with.
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Re: USB audio glitches / errors caused by 5600 XT GPU?

Postby Pete Kaine » Tue Mar 10, 2020 6:28 pm

Have you tried the GPU in the other slots?
I'm clutching at straws, but I've not seen this before, admittedly I've not handled that card yet either.
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Re: USB audio glitches / errors caused by 5600 XT GPU?

Postby Will_m » Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:41 pm

Pete Kaine wrote:Have you tried the GPU in the other slots?
I'm clutching at straws, but I've not seen this before, admittedly I've not handled that card yet either.

Thanks Pete, I'll give that a try, there's the next slot down it might just fit in. Failing that I might have to put in another Scan order and go crawling back to Nvidia as my GTX series seems fine.

Whilst I've got you, are there any BIOS tweaks you'd recommend for the asrock x570 boards? So far I've done the following:

Disabled Bluetooth
Disabled Wifi
Enabled Thunderbolt
Changed Memory Profile to XMP 2.0 (I have the Ryzen optimized 3600 ram kit)
Disabled Onboard Audio

On Intel I know its recommended to disable stuff like speedstep, c-states etc but on the AMD board I can't find them. Guessing they go by another name?
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Re: USB audio glitches / errors caused by 5600 XT GPU?

Postby The Elf » Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:46 pm

I've had this with an incompatible USB card. Swapping the card for an RME-tested model sorted it out instantly (thanks, Pete!). Check what card you have and read up on RME's web site.
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Re: USB audio glitches / errors caused by 5600 XT GPU?

Postby Will_m » Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:58 am

The Elf wrote:I've had this with an incompatible USB card. Swapping the card for an RME-tested model sorted it out instantly (thanks, Pete!). Check what card you have and read up on RME's web site.

The card is a Sonnet Allegro which runs the fresco logic chipset, according to RME this is fully compatible. It also works just fine in my previous build. Although RME also say that other chipsets are 'fully compatible' and I've found that they are not. The UFX+ seems incredibly picky about what it will run on.
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Re: USB audio glitches / errors caused by 5600 XT GPU?

Postby Pete Kaine » Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:44 pm

Ahh, I'd forgotten the platform when I replied. The USB chipset on the X470/570's is ASMedia based as they farmed out the development to them. ASMedia are often an annoyance with some interface ranges and whilst I thought RME didn't have those problems, a quick Google would suggest I'm a little off the mark there.

https://vi-control.net/community/thread ... ons.86863/

So, delving further, think I might have to do the unthinkable....

Pg. 115 of the manual:
(Yes, I went there!)

Current Fireface UFX+ USB 3 Compatibility Information

Fully compatible to Intel's USB 3 implementation which - on current Windows and Mac
computers - is part of the chipset. USB 3 sockets that are connected via an internal cable
(not directly soldered onto the motherboard) can cause transmission errors (these are
shown in the Settings dialog).

Fully compatible to AMD's USB 3 implementation. USB 3 sockets that are connected via an
internal cable (not directly soldered onto the motherboard) can cause transmission errors
(shown in the Settings dialog).

Compatible to NEC / Renesas USB 3. Real-world performance and error-free operation
depend on the firmware version, driver version and the PCB layout of the respective extension card/motherboard.

Fully compatible to Fresco USB 3 chip.
Fully compatible to Via VL912, very often used in USB 3 hubs

ASMedia - not compatible
Etron EJ168A - not compatible
exas TUSB7340 - not compatible
Via VL800/805 - not compatible

The Fireface UFX+ is capable of using two different transmission modes to record data. The UFX+ defaults to Bulk Mode, which improves reliability of USB 3 audio tremendously and helps with both less than perfect cabling as well as critical layouts around the USB 3 chip. The standard’s default is Isochronous Streaming, which is unreliable as per the standard (errors are to be expected!), unreliable in real-world operation, and not correctly supported by popular USB 3 chips. In very seldom cases, bulk mode can not keep up with the strict timing required for continuous audio streaming. Then, to make the UFX+ work at all, isochronous mode must be used (but is still prone to clicks and drop-outs). To make the standard mode available as reference the Settings dialog includes an option to activate Isochronous Streaming.
The Fireface UFX+ also supports USB 2, where MADI record and playback channels are no
longer available (MADI can still be accessed via TotalMix FX). Good performance and click-free operation even at low buffer sizes are indeed possible on current computers.

However, using older computers a simple stereo playback might cause a CPU load of more than 30%.
Best USB 2 performance is achieved by connecting the UFX+ to its own bus, which should be no big problem as most USB 2.0 interfaces are a double bus design. A check in the

Device Manager can be done as follows:
Connect the UFX+ to a USB 2 port
Start the Device Manager, View set to Devices by Connection
Select ACPI x86-based PC, Microsoft ACPI-Compliant System, expand PCI Bus

This branch normally includes two entries of a USB2 Enhanced Host Controller. A USB Root Hub can be seen, which then connects all USB devices, including the UFX+. By reconnecting to a different port this view shows at which of the two controllers the UFX+ is connected. With multiple devices it can be checked if they are connected to the same controller. Further more this information can be used to operate an external USB drive without disturbing the UFX+, by simply connecting the drive to the other controller.
It can also be used to check where and in what combination USB 3 is used. In fact many modern motherboards have an additional chip to the mostly found Intel chipset, adding further USB 3 ports. But documentation is often unclear about which port/socket is connected to which chip.

By connecting the UFX+ and using the procedure above one can easily see the current connection, ensuring the UFX+ is really connected to the Intel chipset and not to some other flaky one.

Especially with notebooks, it can happen that all internal devices and all the sockets/ports are connected to the same controller, with the second controller not used at all. In that case all devices have to use the same bus and will interfere with each other.
A computer blocked for a short time – no matter if ASIO or WDM – will lose one or more data packets. Such problems can only be solved by increasing the buffer size (latency)

Outside of the Zoom units (well, and some Steinberg) I hadn't heard of any other USB issues on the current AMD chipsets and was starting to think we were in the clear. I guess there Isn't quite as many UFX+ owners out there, however.

The Elf is right, in that I guess I have seen it with a UFX and failed to recall it. He's running an Intel box through, so obviously a different chipset but possibly the same solution.

The odd thing in both instances is that the supported list above states that both are validated with it, so I guess it can be affected by other factors we might not be thinking about (BIOS versions, that kind of thing).

The solution for Elf's box from what I recall was PEXUSB3S4V as a drop-in card. It uses another approved chipset in the shape of the NEC/Renesys solution and sorted him right out.

https://www.startech.com/uk/Cards-Adapt ... PEXUSB3S4V

RRP is £50+ but street price is more like £35.
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Re: USB audio glitches / errors caused by 5600 XT GPU?

Postby Pete Kaine » Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:51 pm

Will_m wrote:Whilst I've got you, are there any BIOS tweaks you'd recommend for the asrock x570 boards? So far I've done the following:

Disabled Bluetooth
Disabled Wifi
Enabled Thunderbolt
Changed Memory Profile to XMP 2.0 (I have the Ryzen optimized 3600 ram kit)
Disabled Onboard Audio

On Intel I know its recommended to disable stuff like speedstep, c-states etc but on the AMD board I can't find them. Guessing they go by another name?

They exist, or at least C-states will be somewhere. It varies from board to board, so I've not got anything generic I can give you. The rule I follow is to disable anything you don't need and then anything that clocks the chip down whilst allowing anything that raises it (turbo etc.. should be enabled for instance).

Test the DPC at this stage, if it passes, great forget about it and get on with something more interesting. Only if DPC is being an arse at that point should you concern yourself with chasing the rabbit further.
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Re: USB audio glitches / errors caused by 5600 XT GPU?

Postby Will_m » Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:02 pm

Pete Kaine wrote:They exist, or at least C-states will be somewhere. It varies from board to board, so I've not got anything generic I can give you. The rule I follow is to disable anything you don't need and then anything that clocks the chip down whilst allowing anything that raises it (turbo etc.. should be enabled for instance).

Test the DPC at this stage, if it passes, great forget about it and get on with something more interesting. Only if DPC is being an arse at that point should you concern yourself with chasing the rabbit further.

Thanks Pete, I'll dig deeper and try and find C-Sates on the Asrock x570 Taichi, the manual is pretty useless but I'll shoot them an email, they were pretty good with some info on my TB card.

As for the USB add in card, as I was saying to Elf I already have the Sonnet Allegro card, which runs the fresco logic chipset. This card has been recommended by RME tech support.

I bought it for my last build as I was having issues with my Intel chipset USB ports, which funnily enough are 'fully supported' by RME. The Sonnet card cleared my issues straight away but on this system at least with the 5600 xt GPU, no such joy.
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Re: USB audio glitches / errors caused by 5600 XT GPU?

Postby Will_m » Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:54 am

After some further testing I believe the 5600XT is the culprit. I tried swapping the GPU into another PCIe slot as well the sonnet USB card but I was still getting the USB errors.

After swapping in a GTX 1060 the problem seems to have gone completely so I'm confident the 5600XT card/drivers are responsible.

Hoping maybe Scan will let me swap it out for an Nvidia card.

If anything changes I'll update the thread but for now I'd recommend anyone putting an audio build together staying away from the 5600XT series.
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Re: USB audio glitches / errors caused by 5600 XT GPU?

Postby Pete Kaine » Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:46 pm

The ATI card is one of the new generation PCIe4.0 cards I think? If so, I've been hearing of a few issues with the boards running at that standard and older connected kit.

There Is the ability in your BIOS to switch generational modes, as default, the bus is set to auto, I suspect one of the newer GPU's will kick the whole lot up to PCIe4.0.

Head into the BIOS and try this: Advanced > AMD PBS > Chipset Bus Interface
Then change from Auto to Gen 3.

I think the GPU will still work, from what I can see online current cards have yet to exceed PCIe3.0 bandwidth availability. If I'm right the other cards should start working again on the older standard.

I'll note that the c-states are also in amongst the various menus in the Advanced section. I've also found that the mainboard utility from the site has the A-Fan tuning software and isn't disruptive, so if you've not tried it yet look into it. I have SB fan profile on mine now running 40% at 40 degrees in a linear line to about 70% at 80 degrees. You may need to tweak around with that (run the smart fan tool first to measure the fans too), but I found it fairly easy to curb that fan without any negative side-effects.

In fact, as I have a Taichi to hand now, I could export you a BIOS profile from mine if it's of any use at this point, although I'm not running a PCIe4.0 GPU yet.
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Re: USB audio glitches / errors caused by 5600 XT GPU?

Postby Will_m » Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:06 am

Pete Kaine wrote:The ATI card is one of the new generation PCIe4.0 cards I think? If so, I've been hearing of a few issues with the boards running at that standard and older connected kit.

There Is the ability in your BIOS to switch generational modes, as default, the bus is set to auto, I suspect one of the newer GPU's will kick the whole lot up to PCIe4.0.

Head into the BIOS and try this: Advanced > AMD PBS > Chipset Bus Interface
Then change from Auto to Gen 3.

I think the GPU will still work, from what I can see online current cards have yet to exceed PCIe3.0 bandwidth availability. If I'm right the other cards should start working again on the older standard.

I'll note that the c-states are also in amongst the various menus in the Advanced section. I've also found that the mainboard utility from the site has the A-Fan tuning software and isn't disruptive, so if you've not tried it yet look into it. I have SB fan profile on mine now running 40% at 40 degrees in a linear line to about 70% at 80 degrees. You may need to tweak around with that (run the smart fan tool first to measure the fans too), but I found it fairly easy to curb that fan without any negative side-effects.

In fact, as I have a Taichi to hand now, I could export you a BIOS profile from mine if it's of any use at this point, although I'm not running a PCIe4.0 GPU yet.

Ah, I've just sent the card back to Scan and bought a new one (Nvidia GTX 2060).

The 5600XT card is indeed listed as PCIE 4.0

You're right on the PCIE gen setting, it was on auto. I changed it yesterday to gen 3 as I couldn't cold boot the system and someone recommended me to try that. Turns out I needed to turn off TB security, which fixed the cold boot issue.

The new card I've ordered is listed as PCIE 3.0 so maybe it'll be a better fit anyway and I can keep everything on PCIE 3.0.

Thanks for the info on C-states and the fan tuning app, I've been tuning the fans in the BIOS. What would be a danger area temp for the SB? I think I've currently got it set quite similar to the curve you described.

The whole system idles quite hot from what I'm used to (6900k) but the CPU maxes at about 74c under full load. CPU idles at around 48c. I'm just on stock case fans at the moment but will probably put some Noctuas in it soon.

If you could send me the BIOS profile that'd be great, I'm not attempting any overclocks etc at present as the stock power is good so far. I'm finally able to run my heavy projects at a 256-512 buffer.

One annoyance I have is my USB hub needs to be power cycled every time I boot up or none of the connected devices show up. It worked just fine on my old system and would only need power cycling if I turned off the computer from the PSU.
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Re: USB audio glitches / errors caused by 5600 XT GPU?

Postby Pete Kaine » Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:39 am

Will_m wrote:Thanks for the info on C-states and the fan tuning app, I've been tuning the fans in the BIOS. What would be a danger area temp for the SB? I think I've currently got it set quite similar to the curve you described.

It will start to throttle once it passes 80 degrees from what I understand, although otherwise safe up to around 95/100, although obviously we don't really want to see drive throttle. All the boards I've checked reviews for seem to sit around 65/70 degrees under load and 60 degrees just at idle.

The whole system idles quite hot from what I'm used to (6900k) but the CPU maxes at about 74c under full load. CPU idles at around 48c. I'm just on stock case fans at the moment but will probably put some Noctuas in it soon.

Those temps don't seem outside of what I'd expect to see. The AMD turbo is very aggressive and I often see all cores bouncing around the 4.2 level when any kind of load is applied. The highest all core manual overclock I did was about 4.25 at 80 degrees, so if you chips doing that a well, with those temps I'd be pretty happy with it.

If you could send me the BIOS profile that'd be great, I'm not attempting any overclocks etc at present as the stock power is good so far. I'm finally able to run my heavy projects at a 256-512 buffer.

With what I note above, I'd say your better off not trying to overclock, I certainly haven't this time. I'll send you the profile via pm, make sure to save your working profile first, I've gone aggressive on the power states, so better to have a fall back should windows not like the changes.

One annoyance I have is my USB hub needs to be power cycled every time I boot up or none of the connected devices show up. It worked just fine on my old system and would only need power cycling if I turned off the computer from the PSU.

Have you tried a few different USB ports? I've noticed my KA6 will only connect on startup in some, not all of the ports, this could be similar.
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Re: USB audio glitches / errors caused by 5600 XT GPU?

Postby Will_m » Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:37 pm

Pete Kaine wrote:It will start to throttle once it passes 80 degrees from what I understand, although otherwise safe up to around 95/100, although obviously we don't really want to see drive throttle. All the boards I've checked reviews for seem to sit around 65/70 degrees under load and 60 degrees just at idle.

Thanks Pete, do you know of any way to check the temps under load, so far I'm only seeing it in BIOS, where it sits at around 55 degrees, so in line with your what you've seen.

Pete Kaine wrote:Those temps don't seem outside of what I'd expect to see. The AMD turbo is very aggressive and I often see all cores bouncing around the 4.2 level when any kind of load is applied. The highest all core manual overclock I did was about 4.25 at 80 degrees, so if you chips doing that a well, with those temps I'd be pretty happy with it.

I did a test in cinebench and all cores were just over 4.2, CPU temps were around 75 degrees so looks like all is working well. Its just hotter running than systems I've had before so wanted to check all was ok.

Pete Kaine wrote:With what I note above, I'd say your better off not trying to overclock, I certainly haven't this time. I'll send you the profile via pm, make sure to save your working profile first, I've gone aggressive on the power states, so better to have a fall back should windows not like the changes.

Thanks Pete, I have my current profile saved and backed up so I'll give yours a test.

Pete Kaine wrote:Have you tried a few different USB ports? I've noticed my KA6 will only connect on startup in some, not all of the ports, this could be similar.

I've tried a couple but I'll give them all a go. I did find a few BIOS settings relating to USB power so was wondering if there was anything that kept the USB ports 'live' once you shutdown. The USB hub is externally powered as well.

Thanks again for all the help Pete.
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Re: USB audio glitches / errors caused by 5600 XT GPU?

Postby Pete Kaine » Fri Apr 03, 2020 9:39 am

Will_m wrote:Thanks Pete, do you know of any way to check the temps under load, so far I'm only seeing it in BIOS, where it sits at around 55 degrees, so in line with your what you've seen.

Well, I wrote a response that covered mixing and matching a couple of different test tools and monitoring apps we use, but then took a look at OCCT and realised that the new builds have both a rather heavy stress test and full temp monitoring whilst maintaining a free version.

https://www.ocbase.com/

I've tried a couple but I'll give them all a go. I did find a few BIOS settings relating to USB power so was wondering if there was anything that kept the USB ports 'live' once you shutdown. The USB hub is externally powered as well.

I've not spotted it yet if so, not that I went specifically looking for it last time. I may have to take another look over the weekend as I've a few devices that are looking distinctly Christmas tree-like 24/7 too.
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