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Reaper. Is this a PC Thing?

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Reaper. Is this a PC Thing?

Postby The Bunk » Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:45 pm

Just been doing some "Group Parameters" stuff in Reaper and have noticed it's no longer "Volume / EQ / Stereo etc MASTER and SLAVE but "LEAD" and "FOLLOW". Interesting!
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Re: Reaper. Is this a PC Thing?

Postby desmond » Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:26 pm

Yes, Justin (Reaper developer) changed that recently to move away from those old, racially-loaded terms - it's happening quite a bit in tech at the moment - eg "Whitelist/Blacklist" is being changed to "Allow/Deny lists" and so on.

It's a good thing I think, in general.
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Re: Reaper. Is this a PC Thing?

Postby The Bunk » Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:43 pm

Yep, I agree with this one. There's been a lot of madness lately but I think that's a good move and nicely and discreetly done.
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Re: Reaper. Is this a PC Thing?

Postby resistorman » Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:16 pm

This is such an obvious thing to do and long overdue, IMHO. Words have power and become so ingrained into our cultures they become invisible. But the effect is there.
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Re: Reaper. Is this a PC Thing?

Postby Charles101 » Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:41 pm

We should also not get into a Kneejerk reaction, and eliminate white chalk and black paint.
As a kid growing up in NYC, I never associated white / black as racist.
To me, white was the absence of color, and Black was the absence of light. To this day,
I still refer to them as such. What I did find racist was the accepted term by those of
darker skinned people who referred to themselves as "colored", as opposed to African,
or any other ethnic term. I never thought of myself as "white", I was just Caucasian.

Just think... I missed out on all that "privilege".

And sexual preference was something private, nothing to be parading down the boulevard about.
and no, I wasn't ashamed of my body, but I did have modesty.

But I grew up in a different time.

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Re: Reaper. Is this a PC Thing?

Postby desmond » Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:53 pm

Charles101 wrote:We should also not get into a Kneejerk reaction, and eliminate white chalk and black paint.

The colours themselves are not inherently racially loaded, but their use and context in associating "white" with good, pure, correct, desirable etc and black with bad, undesirable, unwanted, lesser etc seems a more racially loaded use, and if it can be avoided with terminology that works equally well, then so much the better.

I don't think anyone would reasonably argue the use of Master/Slave is a good thing to continue to perpetuate, for instance.

It's not about being *politically correct* (as these things sometimes are), imo, it's just the *correct* thing to do...
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Re: Reaper. Is this a PC Thing?

Postby ConcertinaChap » Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:06 pm

Must admit I completely misread this subject and was going to reply: yes, it's PC but it's Mac as well ... :blush:

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Re: Reaper. Is this a PC Thing?

Postby Charles101 » Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:49 pm

desmond wrote:
Charles101 wrote:We should also not get into a Kneejerk reaction, and eliminate white chalk and black paint.

The colours themselves are not inherently racially loaded, but their use and context in associating "white" with good, pure, correct, desirable etc and black with bad, undesirable, unwanted, lesser etc seems a more racially loaded use, and if it can be avoided with terminology that works equally well, then so much the better.

I don't think anyone would reasonably argue the use of Master/Slave is a good thing to continue to perpetuate, for instance.

It's not about being *politically correct* (as these things sometimes are), imo, it's just the *correct* thing to do...

I quite agree about the color's themselves..., if it can be avoided..., and "political correctness"

But white is associated with good, as evidenced by laundry ads...being "whiter than white" ..
something to be aspired. White by definition is absence of color. ie. unadulterated. Pure.

However, I have never seen a white person. They're flesh toned, not white. Even dead scar tissue has a pinkish tone, when compared to a piece of white paper.


I referred, to the practice inherent in humans, to apply the changes of one idea, to everything.


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Re: Reaper. Is this a PC Thing?

Postby shufflebeat » Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:54 am

I remember a time (so many problematic statements begin with this) before the term "politically correct" was considered derisory. My own first experience of it came during the '80s when people were re-examining their surroundings and identifying, often for their first time, the assumptions on which they depend.

I also remember the first time I heard the term used negatively. It started with a sneer, as though it belonged in "quotation marks" but soon they were dropped and the phrase had been co-opted by it's detractors to represent a negative process with all kinds a of limp-wristed hand wringing associations.

This looks to me like good evidence of linguistic evolution which, if not monitored, subverts the meanings of terms until they become unrepresentative and language becomes less communicative.

It seems like a good idea to keep an eye on language and it's use and recalibrate a few signposts when the map shifts. If that is what's happened here then it looks like a good move.
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Re: Reaper. Is this a PC Thing?

Postby Mike Stranks » Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:07 am

I applaud any attempt to remove unconscious (which become subconscious) references to racial and gender divides...

But they are deeply ingrained and finding alternatives with meaning needs some thought.

I'm consciously trying not to use black/white as an either/or term. But I do like the phrase 'agonising shades of grey' to explain that sometimes moral choices are hard and not obvious. But if I've switched to 'binary', rather than 'b/w' I have to find another phrase... And will everyone understand (at present) if I say 'Binary' rather than 'B/W'?

Trivial I know compared to centuries of racial and gender hierarchies, but just an illustration of how switching to new forms can be more complicated than it might first seem. It's not necessarily a simple binary issue. ;)
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Re: Reaper. Is this a PC Thing?

Postby shufflebeat » Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:01 am

I agree with your thinking, Mike, but see two dangers with this:

Black vs white is a really good (not the only) metaphor/example of binary choice. It is possible to read subtext into it, particularly when that subtext is definitely intended as a sneery veiled message, but to reframe the language to accommodate unintended, imagined or potential meanings is both an unending rabbit hole project and also creates fodder for those who feign (or genuinely feel) discomfort-rage at any kind of intrusion into their comfort zone.

The other problem is that it sometimes gives the impression of progress without actually addressing the issue which puts those "message manipulators" we have recently become so familiar with, in positions of greater influence.

I would argue we are better exercising and improving our analytical and critical faculties and working towards shared understanding based on principles of conflict resolution.
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Re: Reaper. Is this a PC Thing?

Postby Arpangel » Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:52 am

desmond wrote:
Charles101 wrote:We should also not get into a Kneejerk reaction, and eliminate white chalk and black paint.

The colours themselves are not inherently racially loaded, but their use and context in associating "white" with good, pure, correct, desirable etc and black with bad, undesirable, unwanted, lesser etc seems a more racially loaded use, and if it can be avoided with terminology that works equally well, then so much the better.

I don't think anyone would reasonably argue the use of Master/Slave is a good thing to continue to perpetuate, for instance.

It's not about being *politically correct* (as these things sometimes are), imo, it's just the *correct* thing to do...

Black, and white, I’ve always thought of black to mean darkness, the eternity of space, or death, nothing.
White is light, the bringer of life, the sun, it’s got no racial connection AFAIC.
As far as skin colour goes, there isn’t such a thing as black, or white skin, we are a multitude of shades.
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Re: Reaper. Is this a PC Thing?

Postby ore_terra » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:15 pm

I'd understand it if they would any sort of connotations to the slave-master thing in audio, but are we not just using the very meaning of both words?

master: dictates what to do (what to follow)
slave: obeys
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Re: Reaper. Is this a PC Thing?

Postby shufflebeat » Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:05 pm

ore_terra wrote:I'd understand it if they would any sort of connotations to the slave-master thing in audio, but are we not just using the very meaning of both words?

master: dictates what to do (what to follow)
slave: obeys

Pick your non-associated phrase -

Parent/child
Lead/follow
Unit controller/unit
King(Queen)/pawn
Manager/worker
Degenerate capitalist oppressor of the masses/heroic proletariat
Priv/pleb

I've got loads, no hidden messages there.
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Re: Reaper. Is this a PC Thing?

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:20 pm

I still like Yoda/Skywalker, or Jedi/Padawan.... :bouncy:
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