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Does any one buy software?

For anything relating to music-making on Windows computers, with lots of FAQs. Moderated by Martin Walker.

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Re: Does any one buy software?

Postby Smithee » Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:00 pm

I've been down the whole cracked software road in the past and it's not an expecially fulfilling one.
Software can be expensive and not always justifibly so. For the power that something like Nuendo offers and when placed against its DSP based rivals, it comes out as very competitively priced (despite version 3's price increases). Compare that to Pro Tools M-Powered, which on a feature to feature comparison, appears very expensive against software Like Sonar or Cubase which come in at that price point.

I also agree that software companies don't help themselves. From Microsoft's anti-piracy (and anti-privacy) measures like Windows Genuine Advantage/Product Activation etc.. to Steinberg's love of dongles and the oh so popular challenge-response system used with many plugins, there systems often annoy legitamite users whilst being easily bypassed by crackers. Of course they want to stamp out piracy, and that's why these systems are used, but Steinberg dongle emulators or work-arounds aren't too hard to find and a cracked copy of Cubase is just an eDonkey search away. Ultimately, the dongle only serves to cause problems for legitamite users' machines when they're not recognised or cause problems after upgrades.
Thankfully, some companies like Cakewalk don't burden users unecessarily with such systems, their software is also cheaper yet it's been Steinberg and not Cakewalk that's been the subject of buyouts and takeovers.
I think I should also mention open source software ( :roll: , there's always one), which ironically you can also find on Warez servers - although no doubt they're virus filled versions. There's lots of open source software (mostly for Linux or Mac, but some for Windows) that is more than adequate for many people's needs. Audacity is one excellent example, it not only offers plenty of audiofile editing tools, but also very advanced stuff like spectrum views.
It's often put forward as an argument, that when you start using cracks/warez it's easy to just download every piece of software and every plugin you can fine, when in fact you don't have a clue how to use any of it. And in my own personal experience, it's ultimately better for the person, if they learn the theory and the basics of audio with the multitude of free (and often very high quality) plugins out there than trying to use the Waves Diamond Pack with absolutely no theory behind you.

And just in case I didn't make it clear, I don't use any software that isn't legitamite. I also don't illegally share music etc...
Just because something's expensive and overpriced, that's not an excuse to steal it. Whether you agree or not with the what the seller's done with the product, you can't justify stealing from the seller, just because you think their wrong. You also can't justify stealing, just becasue you can't afford it! I've always found the argument that because you're a poor student, it's okay to pirate stuff as being rather odd. I'm a student, and I can't afford a lot of stuff (a car, accomodation that isn't next to the main road and a HD TV would all be lovely), but I don't think I could justify stealing those things.
It's another cliche argument against piracy, but I don't think it's a bad one.

Anyway.., that's my £0.02 :D .
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Re: Does any one buy software?

Postby trip_out » Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:49 pm

I've been down the whole cracked software route, even so far as to feel angred by emagic stopping the PC version (because of people like me!). At the time I felt okay using it because I was a poor student and rightly or wrongly I justified it by saying I'd buy it if I used it enough or made money out of it.

However now that I only use legit software, I find myself feeling happier. From a karma perspective, and also from the fact that I generally use smaller developers software and if I have a problem there is often someone on hand to answer and fix things. Web forums are much friendlier when you are not asking for manuals ;)

These days I have licenses for energyXT, Tracktion, Synthmaker, Wusikstation, and I've just saved my pennies and bought Ableton Live. I'm sure that all of these have cracks, but I'm happy to support all these.

I don't know if I'd be the same with the majors (yes I know Ableton is getting there now), but that is just a personal perspective.
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Re: Does any one buy software?

Postby infiniteloop » Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:41 am


Surely some lapse in logic there infiniteloop? How can you be trying to make an honest living when you're using hacked software

That's my point...!! I'm TRYING to make an honest living..!! At the end of the day I have to use the software and if I can't afford it then I have no choice but to use hacked versions. I'd rather not..but I've no choice. I don't have a 9 - 5 job and make music as a hobby..it's how I make my living. I also agree that Steinberg are kinda on the right track with offering 3 diffent versions of Cubase with 3 different prices, but I don't see why I should have to pay to use a cut-down version when I can use the hacked full version for free. Make it affordable to everyone and we'll see the end of software hacking.
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Re: Does any one buy software?

Postby Stephen Parker » Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:31 am

Morning - I think one of the problems here is that guys such as infiniteloop even think it's justifiable to use something they didn't pay for - ignoring the fact that he might make some money from it.

I'm not going to get into analogies as to be honest, most are bollocks, but if there isn't a sea-change in opinions, the general music maker is going to have a lot less options, as software companies will not be able to afford to keep investing in product just to have it stolen.

I can't believe that you think that because SE3 is 'cut-down' compared to a crack of SX3, it's OK to use!! How about no choice as an alternative?

I was with NI last week and they have illegal download figures for Traktor over 4 months of in the region of 500,000 downloads. We know that not all downloaded cracks are used, but these kind of figures can't be ignored.

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Re: Does any one buy software?

Postby Andi » Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:59 am

Given SOS' zero tolerance policy towards illegal software use, hasn't Infinite just typed something along the lines of "I'm an unreconstructed and unrepentant user of hacked software in a commercial environment, please revoke my SOS forum sign-in immediately".

Sorry bud but your argument sounds a bit like "why should I use an Epiphone when I can steal a Gibson". It's crap!

Oh, and you do have a choice - the same one that everyone else has.
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Re: Does any one buy software?

Postby Martin Walker » Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:02 pm

infiniteloop wrote:At the end of the day I have to use the software and if I can't afford it then I have no choice but to use hacked versions. I'd rather not..but I've no choice. I don't have a 9 - 5 job and make music as a hobby..it's how I make my living.

Another mighty lapse in logic infiniteloop. 'At the end of the day' you don't HAVE to use the software - you obviously WANT to use it, but don't want to PAY for it unless you absolutely have to, and are happy to use an ILLEGAL version.

You say you don't have a 9 to 5 job and make music as a hobby, but then say in the same sentence that's how you make your living. You can't have it both ways! If you want to make a living from your music you're presumably expecting to receive some money for it, and software developers have the same right to expect people to pay for their products. If you consider them too expensive then don't buy them.

As many have already said here, there's plenty of good FREE software out there for those who for whatever reason can't afford to pay for commercial products. Sadly you're not making many friends here by persisting in the attitude that if something is too expensive then you'll just steal it.


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Re: Does any one buy software?

Postby Nailbunny » Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:09 pm

for every 10 people that have a cracked version 1 person has bought a copy. This is just viral marketing really and could be good for the company. Is this really where they are getting their revenue stream from, Im not convinced of that. Plus if you have a company you are really supposed to buy a legal copy! Just like I did, ahem. :crazy:
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Re: Does any one buy software?

Postby Combo » Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:44 pm

Well it would be if those 10 people all used the cracks that they own (is that the right word?) My buddies seem to have a lot of stuff that just sits on their drives and never even gets installed.

Andi also makes a good point that you can often be more productive with a limited palette of plugins that you know inside out than a vast array that you haven't even worked right through the presets of.
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Re: Does any one buy software?

Postby infiniteloop » Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:13 pm

Martin Walker....Why don't you read my reply properly..? I said I don't have a 9-5 job and don't make music as just a 'hobby'. This forum is full of do-good bible thumpers. OPEN YOUR EYES for Gods sake..!! As for the user who suggested my forum rights be removed..who do you think you are..? This forum is titled 'Does anyone buy software' and I'm every bit as entitled to my say as you are to yours..! Last I remember we live in a country where freedom of speech is still allowed..even if it's not what you want to hear. Why don't you all get down off your high horses and relax..? The ONLY point I was trying to make is that I think if software was made more affordable then we would see less hacks being used. To the user who suggests I don't use the hacked software and instead just don't use ANYTHING..oh dear..you do live in the dark ages don't you..!! The choice is mine to make whether it's right or wrong. I'd much rather the authentic item was affordable and use that but if I can't afford it then so be it..and just for the record, I now have an authentic non-hacked Cubase SL, and it's no better or worse than any hacks of SX that I've seen..so how do we convince people NOT to use free hacked software but instead go and spend their hard earned money on the real deal. To me it's simple..MAKE THE SOFTWARE AFFORDABLE..!
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Re: Does any one buy software?

Postby Peter Conz Connelly » Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:28 pm

Chill out :shock:

It probably would be more affordable if people weren't using illigitimate copies. It's the thieving gippos that keep the costs up!

P
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Re: Does any one buy software?

Postby jellyjim » Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:35 pm

infiniteloop wrote:Martin Walker....Why don't you read my reply properly..?

Be nice to Martin, he's Cornish.

infiniteloop wrote:do-good bible thumpers

Thou shalt not steal being one of the better bits.

infiniteloop wrote:To me it's simple..MAKE THE SOFTWARE AFFORDABLE..!

But it is affordable. Cubase SE is £99 for cripes sake. Cubase LE is free with hardware. Have you seen what LE does? It's freakin awesome.

Making sofware cheaper might increase sales but it doesn't follow that piracy will be reduced.

You or anyone is welcome to use warez but you have to face facts, any attempt to justify it is just laughable.

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Re: Does any one buy software?

Postby jellyjim » Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:45 pm

jellyjim wrote:Making sofware cheaper might increase sales but it doesn't follow that piracy will be reduced.

... and another thing, the best way to reduce piracy is to educate people like you as to what it actually is, theft.

What if I took some of your music and used it for commercial gain without compensating you? How would that feel?

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Re: Does any one buy software?

Postby loutus » Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:46 pm

infiniteloop wrote:To me it's simple..MAKE THE SOFTWARE AFFORDABLE..!

Affordable eh? Most software is completely affordable. Then again I actually have a job and earn a decent income.
I respect the fact that there are thousands of hours put into product development. Everyone has to get a paycheck. Maybe you should get off you chesterfield, go out and get a real job and then maybe you might respect others hard work.
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Re: Does any one buy software?

Postby Bill C » Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:01 pm

infiniteloop wrote:My point is that the software should be made affordable, and I don't just mean music software I mean ALL software..maybe then the humble musician trying to make an honest living like myself wouldn't have to resort to using hacked software..


no offense intended, but if your income from music isn't sufficient to pay for the tools of your trade, perhaps you should consider supplementing your income with some other kind of work, rather than denying software developers "an honest living" :)
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Re: Does any one buy software?

Postby John Willett » Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:11 pm

So, Infiniteloop, you say this is your business - it's like someone setting up a gardening business and can't afford the tools - so he goes down to the garden centre and steals a spade and wheelbarrow.

It's the same thing.

You expect people to pay you for your work - don't you?
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