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Celestion G12M-70 Speaker

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Celestion G12M-70 Speaker

Postby Jay Menon » Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:23 pm

There seems to be a lot of dislike / hate for this speaker on the 'net...

But I'm looking for a 4 ohm speaker - and this seems to be the only one.

Does anybody have personal experience of this speaker - and is it of reasonable quality please?
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Re: Celestion G12M-70 Speaker

Postby Music Wolf » Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:00 pm

I couldn't find the G12M-70 on the Celestion website (I think that it's different to the green back and cream back?).

I had a browse through the Kemper profiles to see if I could find an example but, sadly, they are all either cream backs or just labeled G12M.

I peered into one of the other forums and yes, quite a bit of hatred out there but also some people (and these were people who appear to have actually played through a G12M-70) asking what was all the fuss about because they preferred them.

As best as I could discern it would seem that the G12M-70 has more emphasis in the upper mids than its siblings.

It comes down to knowing what you are after. I've found simulators very good in this respect (software or hardware). They may not be 100% 'real' but they are good enough to help you decide whether you prefer the sound of a Vox vs a Marshall or a vintage speaker vs something more modern. Having tried the Kemper version, next time I'm after a real amp then Two Rock will be a must try for me.
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Re: Celestion G12M-70 Speaker

Postby Wonks » Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:39 pm

It doesn't appear to be a current model, so you'll have to look for a used one if you want one.

What power rating does it need, and does it need to match another speaker or is it a for a stand-alone cab/combo?

There are other 4 ohm speakers, though not all dealers may have them all in stock. There are one 12" Eminence speaker I could find in a 4 ohm version, the Texas Heat 4. Also look at WGS (Warehouse Guitar Speakers - though I think they use to be Western Guitar Speakers until recently). Their 12" ET65 is available in a 4 ohm version and that's a really nice speaker (based on a Creamback 65) . I had an 8 ohm version in my Two Rock combo. In fact most of their speakers are available in 4 ohm versions. https://wgsusa.com/

Lean Business is one UK supplier of these, http://www.lean-business.co.uk/eshop/wg ... 2&sort=20a (they are also a good source for Celestion speakers). They only appear to keep the 8 and 16 ohm versions in stock, but you could ask if they'll order you one, otherwise you might have to import directly.
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Re: Celestion G12M-70 Speaker

Postby Music Wolf » Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:37 pm

Wonks wrote: I had an 8 ohm version in my Two Rock combo.

OK, now I'm envious. :sick:

I had an Eminence speaker a while back, but don't remember the model - but I liked it.
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Re: Celestion G12M-70 Speaker

Postby Sam Spoons » Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:47 pm

Out of interest Jay why do you need a 4 ohm version?
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Re: Celestion G12M-70 Speaker

Postby Wonks » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:59 pm

Maxing the output on a transistor amp? If so, you'll be better off looking at a more efficient 8 ohm speaker.
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Re: Celestion G12M-70 Speaker

Postby Jay Menon » Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:05 pm

Exactly Wonky...

I bought one of those new BlackStar ID TVP amplifiers - the primary intention is to be able to achieve an over driven sound at bedroom friendly volumes.

I have 2×12 cab with Celestion G12Ms (8 ohms) that sounds lovely, but if I ever wanted to gig it, I wonder if I would perhaps find the extra volume that a 4 Ohm Speaker could give me useful?
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Re: Celestion G12M-70 Speaker

Postby Wonks » Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:27 pm

It's a bit swings and roundabouts. If you drop down to one speaker, a reduced speaker surface area loses most of the gains that a single 4 ohm speaker would give you, plus you'll have a bit less bass output

The G12M has a 96dB efficiency (@1w @ 1m), so it's OK, but there are more efficient speakers out there in the 100 and 101 dBs area, so swapping out speakers could get some extra volume from what you already have. What ID TVP is it and do you know what speaker it has?
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Re: Celestion G12M-70 Speaker

Postby Sam Spoons » Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:32 pm

When you say your 2x12 is 8 ohms I guess that is for the cab? With solid state power amps halving the speaker impedance usually gives about 50% more power, or about 2dB (very roughly in both cases). A more efficient speaker will give more volume for each watt. I use a Vintage 30 in a hand wired 18 Watt combo for just that reason (valve amps don't give more watts if you use a lower impedance speaker). Your BlackStar is a combo (must be if all the info is on the BlackStar site)? If so it doesn't have a speaker output so do you know what the built in speaker is? If it's already an efficient 4 ohm driver you have nothing to gain. Without that info it's pretty much impossible to help.
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Re: Celestion G12M-70 Speaker

Postby Jay Menon » Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:12 am

Thanks Wonky, Sam and Wolf...

I actually bought the 60watt head - the ID60 TVP Head - and so would be interested to experiment a little with a 1x12 speaker cab...the WGS speaker sounds interesting...
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Re: Celestion G12M-70 Speaker

Postby Wonks » Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:50 am

I'd suggest simply trying it with the 2x12 cab you have first at a rehearsal. You should still be getting around 40W from it (and if the TVP speak is to be believed, then it should be a valve amp-like 40W), which should be more than enough for gigging in pubs and small clubs. My current gigging amp has 22W, and I can't turn that up fully at gigs.

I have recently got another 40W amp (a 5E5-A clone), but I've changed the speaker in that for a less efficient one so that it's not too loud. I did try it at the last gig but it went wrong in the soundcheck so had to borrow a 40W Blues Deluxe at the last minute. Set that up so the clean sound was about the same, but it was ridiculously loud when I used my OD pedals (which were set for decent levels with the original amp). Sounded great, just very, very loud.
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Re: Celestion G12M-70 Speaker

Postby Music Wolf » Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:02 pm

Wonks wrote: You should still be getting around 40W from it (and if the TVP speak is to be believed, then it should be a valve amp-like 40W), which should be more than enough for gigging in pubs and small clubs.

I have an ID60 TVP combo. I don't like to think about it too much because I bought it not so long ago to play in a band with a loud drummer / acoustic kit and we've since gone, via a drummer with an electronic kit, to no drummer / backing tracks.

The Blackstar is a good amp and I'm keeping it as I will undoubtedly need it again the second I sell it but I'm now using my Kemper straight into the PA.

Anyway, I can't say for certain that the ID 60 really is as loud as a valve amp but I can confirm that it is sufficiently loud that I wouldn't want to turn it all the way up without some form of hearing protection.

I'll also take this opportunity to say that this, otherwise very good, range of amps is being let down badly by the appalling editing software :thumbdown:
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Re: Celestion G12M-70 Speaker

Postby Wonks » Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:21 pm

Music Wolf wrote:I'll also take this opportunity to say that this, otherwise very good, range of amps is being let down badly by the appalling editing software :thumbdown:


I'm sure ef37a did his best. He's good with valves, but not that great at writing software. ;)
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Re: Celestion G12M-70 Speaker

Postby Music Wolf » Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:42 pm

With the greatest respect to Dave ...........it wouldn't surprise me if he had written it.

It does really let the ID range down because, in every other respect, they are very good (certainly for the price). I'm no expert in this field but I find it strange that Blackstar can make such a decent fist of the modelling software but then fall down so badly on the editor.

Sorry, getting off topic.
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Re: Celestion G12M-70 Speaker

Postby Jay Menon » Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:37 pm

Now I'm curious to know - what wrong with the editor software? Blackstar Insider isn't it?
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Re: Celestion G12M-70 Speaker

Postby Music Wolf » Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:55 pm

Jay Menon wrote:Now I'm curious to know - what wrong with the editor software? Blackstar Insider isn't it?

First problem is that it won't run on all machines (lots of comments about this on various forums). You need to install Microsoft Silverlight before it will run at all but, even with that installed, I have at least one machine where it won't run (white screen).

If you can get it to run then, on far too many occasions, I've had problems storing and moving patches. Not uncommon for the delay and other effects to develop a mind of their and turn repeats to max. I ended up storing effects separately to the amp settings but then it was still a bit hit and miss.

Not being able to set delay times in ms is also a bit of an oversight IMHO.

I should try it again as its been a few months but, having just checked the BS site, I think that I'm up-to-date.

If they could just sort this out then it would be a great amp for the money.
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Re: Celestion G12M-70 Speaker

Postby Jay Menon » Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:27 am

You are absolutely right wonky - even with my 8 Ohm 2x12 cab, this amp goes very very loud if I dime it :-).

No need to find a 4 Ohm cab.
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Re: Celestion G12M-70 Speaker

Postby Wonks » Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:47 am

...and relax.

Good news. :)
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Re: Celestion G12M-70 Speaker

Postby Blazzoblaster » Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:20 pm

Wonks wrote:It doesn't appear to be a current model, so you'll have to look for a used one if you want one.

What power rating does it need, and does it need to match another speaker or is it a for a stand-alone cab/combo?

There are other 4 ohm speakers, though not all dealers may have them all in stock. There are one 12" Eminence speaker I could find in a 4 ohm version, the Texas Heat 4. Also, look at WGS (Warehouse Guitar Speakers - though I think they use to be Western Guitar Speakers until recently). Their 12" ET65 is available in a 4 ohm version and that's a really nice speaker (based on a Creamback 65). I had an 8 ohm version in my Two Rock combo. In fact, most of their speakers are available in 4 ohm versions. https://wgsusa.com/

Lean Business is one UK supplier of these, http://www.lean-business.co.uk/eshop/wg ... 2&sort=20a (they are also a good source for Celestion speakers). They only appear to keep the 8 and 16-ohm versions in stock, but you could ask if they'll order you one, otherwise, you might have to import directly.

They wouldn't be as now they are considered vintage. Pretty much any of the vintage era Marshall's have KILLER sound to them. I'm currently using the 1987 3203 Marshall Artist (30W) with the 1965A cabinet. Tired of hauling it to and from rehearsal I'm seriously thinking of picking up the 1980's era JCM 800 50w Combo amp since it's one less trip to the van to haul gear to the basement studio.

To me its all about what you think of the sound when you play through it. If your ear is pleased then that is what really matters. There is a reason these amps are carrying such a high resale value and its not because of the speakers "sucking" If its that big of a deal you can always swap out the G12M-70's for greenbacks
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Re: Celestion G12M-70 Speaker

Postby ef37a » Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:31 am

Music Wolf wrote:With the greatest respect to Dave ...........it wouldn't surprise me if he had written it.

It does really let the ID range down because, in every other respect, they are very good (certainly for the price). I'm no expert in this field but I find it strange that Blackstar can make such a decent fist of the modelling software but then fall down so badly on the editor.

Sorry, getting off topic.

I can assure you all I did not! Would not have a ******* clue!
In fact I had almost nothing to do with the ID series apart from heat rise tests on some transformers. But...speakers:

The amps are class 'D' and these tend to be more impedance 'sensitive' than class AB transistor amplifiers. By that I mean if they are optimized for 4 Ohms they deliver rather less into higher load impedances than an AB amp would. You would expect 40-50W into 8R from an AB amp rated at 60W but the Ds might be only 35-40W? In practice however, hardly noticeable. (35W into the 98 dB/W/mtr G12M is still 114dB SPL!) .

Add the fact that all Blackstar amplifiers are rated for a 230V mains input. Most of us get closer to 240W so that gives you a tad more welly. The 8R 2x12 will benefit from a slight forward 'gain' if stood on end, all up the ID 60 will I am sure be easily loud enough in any pub. If OP wanted a seriously punchy 2x12? Replace the Ms with V30s (better Golds!) in 8R format in parallel. Pushing at the door of 120dB with 240 mains!

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