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So how come all guitars don't have these frets?

Postby DC-Choppah » Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:45 am

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Re: So how come all guitars don't have these frets?

Postby Sam Spoons » Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:06 am

Because they don't actually work?
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Re: So how come all guitars don't have these frets?

Postby Wonks » Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:28 am

Standard frets work well enough to start with, and any tuning system is a compromise. Any attempt to get each note 'in tune' to a chosen system needs to take into account string gauge and personal fretting pressure. Without this, any system (like these frets) is still a compromise.

They'd be almost impossible to replace and would take ages to level and re-profile.

Personally I can't see how they can't affect string bending when you hit a 3mm jump in fret position!
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Re: So how come all guitars don't have these frets?

Postby Honch » Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:27 pm

Agree with Wonks.

Mainly it's because no one wants to diss anyones business idea, or business, and if it works to lure and dissiduade guitars into the material sports that you have to buy something to solve a problem that doesn't exists. Gtrds aren't the smarterst and attention span is limited. If you try to probe deep into all the mysterious paths of equal tempered intonation, it's mostly too much information onslaught information for anyone. If something should be - really - equal in all keys, of intontation, there's ONLY fretless to go. And then it all depends on your fingers only. Period. No fret system, or nut compensation system will do this. Fanned frets, true temperament frets, and ideas like the "Earvana Nut" and - especiall this ones eludes me - the "BFTS Buzz Feiten Tuning System" is all compromises that will make some things slightly better in one end, but even of a larger and more detrimental compromise in the other end.

Even over at TGP and othe forums, some hails and makes kudos for Buzz Feiten to get it "sellable" and fought his way into making it a commercial viable product. So I can tell you now why not any of these systems will work. All these systems are told to compensate withing -+ 3 cents of accuracy of any note. It's maybe that the tuners these days are too accurate? Strobe tuners within 0,002 cent? I don't press the frets with the same force as you do. I use different gauges too. Think what would happen if you use a capo on any True Temperament frets neck? Maybe I'll start to play jazz, and wants a spun 3rd string? There's no one that can hammer into me that these systems will fix it all equally. There's way too many factors that's involved to type it all here. It's too personal, with each one individuals personal fretting technique. So I give you ONE idea and experiment here to try out on ANY guitar:

1. Tune all open strings as perfect as you can to an accurate tuner.
2. Fret a E-major type barré chord up at say 9th fret. A C# major. No fancy thing a regular one. Now, fret it only, don't play it. Keep the tuner on.
3. The third g-string is now held down by both your barré finger (index), and your middle finger presses down the "third" of the chord. Now just play that note while watching the tuner, and ...
4. Take off and on the barré finger repeatedly and watch what the tuner reads when tracking that single note on the G-string only. EUREKA!

The tuner shows a little too sharp when barré finger is held down doesn't it? But goes a bit flat when you take that finger off, doesn't it? Now think if you have an acoustic guitar with a capo on and play barré chords. A strings is pressed down THREE TIMES along it's path. Once with the capo, once with your barré finger and - maybe - the rest of your fingers. They ALL go up in pitch too much relatively to those strings that are pressed just once. All intonation systems are made with pressing down just once, with ONE fingers, and doesn't take into account multiple pressure along one string, as it does with capo, barré fingers. If you intonate to this only, it will sound sour in all other instances and just help you when doing CERTAIN barré chords.

Not ANY true temperament frets, earvana nut, buzz feiten will save you from this. Ever. Never. So no matter what you do you have your behind at your rear. Keep your regular frets, and - yes - an intonatonable bridge for all individual strings, and intonate it to YOUR fingering preferences, and then you're good to go.

Verdict: The rationale behind these TrueTemperament systemns, -+3 cents here and there, is totally absurd and bizzare. No one I know can fret that exactly on any guitar. I certainly can't and I have yet to see one, either if they're called Steve Vai, Mattias I A Eklundh, or anything else. I find this peculiar anyway, since Steve Vai DOES use a fretless anyway, so I wonder why he dabbles with this at all.
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Re: So how come all guitars don't have these frets?

Postby zenguitar » Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:28 pm

Because 99.99999% of the music people want to play and hear is in Equal Temperament where standard frets are not just perfectly OK but technically correct.

1% of people selling these systems are knowledgable and selling bespoke solutions for specific choices. The remaining 99% are ignorant fools who either don't understand or don't care and just see how much money can be made from snake oil.

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Re: So how come all guitars don't have these frets?

Postby ManFromGlass » Mon Dec 25, 2017 6:50 pm

Snake oil in guitarland? Hard to imagine. (Sarcasm font implied!)
So let's say hypothetically that your guitar is now perfectly in tune in the key you want to play in. Isn't it going to stick out like a sore thumb if you play with other instruments?

I find this quest interesting, I quite enjoyed Wendy Carlos's Beauty In The Beast and other experimenters of non-equal temperament. I was amused when I heard some classical string players tune a hair sharp so they will stick out a bit when playing with the herd. But in the end all the bendy, bluesy, microtonal in and out of tune-ness is what guitar is all about. And my brain and ears think that kicks ass!
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Re: So how come all guitars don't have these frets?

Postby CS70 » Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:52 pm

Honch wrote:Agree with Wonks.

Mainly it's because no one wants to diss anyones business idea, or business

Not sure I'd be so harsh? These things have been around for a while, and - while I tried one just the once - may have a place for certain music? Where bends aren't that important, of course.

When it comes to playing styles which require vastly different sounds in a live set, the most common thing is to simply have at the ready different guitars with different set ups. So nothing special with having on just tempered-one as well.

And about using capos, well, I use them a lot and you always have to adjust a little the intonation if you put them far from the zero or twelfth fret.. Again,for gigs where having a five secs tune-up between songs is not good, I simply bring my guitars rack and someone passes me the right one for the song.

Sure, most good players adjust with micro bends when playing lines to get the pitch "right" (which may or may not be just.. it all depends on what one's used to), but I wouldn't dismiss these just as a commercial gimmick, or even a problem solver... It's just a different variation of the instrument, it may well have its place near eight or seven string guitars, fretless guitars and others..
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Re: So how come all guitars don't have these frets?

Postby Honch » Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:32 am

CS70 wrote:Not sure I'd be so harsh? These things have been around for a while, and - while I tried one just the once - may have a place for certain music? Where bends aren't that important, of course.
Me too. (no pun intended with the current other metoo movement). It has dawned on me slowly. Even among luthiers this is frowned at. It only works with one string gauge, and special tuning, and - most especially - with a plain third. No one is going to try to get me over that this works with ANY string gauge, or wound or plain strings, no matter how much you can adjust it individually at the bridge. I find it peculiar that TT offers a plethora of different necks. It should be made as a, really, one size fits all, or one neck (or temperament) cures all.

CS70 wrote:And about using capos, well, I use them a lot and you always have to adjust a little the intonation if you put them far from the zero or twelfth fret.. Again,for gigs where having a five secs tune-up between songs is not good, I simply bring my guitars rack and someone passes me the right one for the song.

Well, these ones still doesn't adress this, as all of their ideas are thrown out of the windows, and your stuck anyway with the "regular" system of intonation or tuning, that you have to adjust for anyway.

CS70 wrote:Sure, most good players adjust with micro bends when playing lines to get the pitch "right" (which may or may not be just.. it all depends on what one's used to), but I wouldn't dismiss these just as a commercial gimmick, or even a problem solver... It's just a different variation of the instrument, it may well have its place near eight or seven string guitars, fretless guitars and others..

It has dawned slowly to me that for most guitarists, bassists, the innovation understanding or comprehension "stops" right before it turns too much for them. They mostly go by the cool looks. Most of the luthiers and guitarists are very unaware of the experiences in tuning and intonation of - say - headless guitars with a zero fret, and no steep angle behind the zero fret. The strings ball ends stops just there, and there's absolutely no "too sharp pitch" ANYWHERE on the first few frets, and those ones I've tried - while having a lot other things left to be desired - doesn't suffer from these so-called intonation idiosyncrasies at all. I would even go as far as say that even if the guitar has a headstock but equipped with a zero fret, you're better off in intonation anyway on the first few frets after it.

Since it's a Swedish innovation, I've seen many of these guitars, or necks turning up in the second hand markets now, on our national equivalent to ebay, reverb, reddit, or whatever. They buy it, play for it for a while, and then goes sort of "meh".

On national Guitar Trade Fairs I've always been thrown out from the TT booth when I play a G sharp on the fourth fret, and a first fret on g-string (G sharp as well) at the same time, and Andreas Tidell goes "it's a nice chorusing sound", and I go "no it bloody hell isn't, it's out of tune"! While it sounds "sweet" on all other instances. I can immediately play with "classical" fingering and spot those octaves that are way more out the -+ 3,4 cents, they are 5-6 cent. They just sound great on certain chord formations, that are the butter and bread of most music. And as fast you get on a capo and plays "open strings" in any flats or sharps, you'll start to hear too many idiosyncrasies.

The thing is: You can't play together with other instruments that aren't possible to retune or re-intonate at the spot. Say any mallet instruments, acoustic pianos, and the like. One takes for granted that you're always solo and a capella on stage, which I think it's very very limiting demographic and customer base. BTW, Buzz Feiten did the major gaffe by trying to not let any information go out on the actuall offsets of the tuning. He came out with this, at the beginning of the internet onlslaught, thinking that he could eventually sue someone if they published the "method". No one cares these days about BFTS, anymore. Same thing there. They buy it, plays around with it for a while, and then goes "meh". The novelty fad gadget has run its course.

- - - - - - - - - -

If one does the nut right, or even better, with a zero fret (done right too, mind you) you don't have these superficial problems with intonations at all. If the rest of the neck, frets, and guitar is set up meticuously. And as I stated with my example, since players DO play with pressing the fingers down twice (barré chords) you are pitching SOME individual notes up in 3-4 cents sharp anyway, while other still stays at 0 cent, and the rest anything in between. It's a very limiting demographic to tell people what to play in terms of chord shapes and what to avoid in order for it to sound sweet. BTW I don't mind a regular tuned piano at all, but that tuning has to be made "perfect" too. And since most guitar strings goes up in pitch initially while digging in with your pick, and whacking the strings hard, it's very hard to tell at which pick attack they won't sound out of tune with the other strings. There are simply too many factors that you can't get rid of with TT necks/frets or anything else, and if I would write all of it here, I would monopolize, hijack, and take over the thread, and get banned. It's a different blog or vlog that would take ages to produce. It would take several pages in at least two digit numbers if not three digit figures in order to explain it all. The pitfalls, and what to be wary of. Of course the fanbois, and the manufacturers themselves are all only about their tremendous advantages of course. That we don't need forums to read. We can go to each manufacturers website, to read that, and it won't be any different.

- - - - - -

As it is dime a dozen reviews on all forums these days, and the "honeymoon period" of any thing out there, the endowment effect, early adaptor and so on, I find that "negative reviews" contains MORE and OTHER and ALTERNATE information than any "positive reviews". Then I collect them all in and make my judgements. And theres maybe 1 to 10 of negative reviews out there compared to positive ones. I see all of them as ONE big review, when everything is said and done. I still think it's a vaild forum post to make a caveat emptor towards anyone THINKING about buying TT necks, or anything else, what to think of before making the plunge. If you have very well thought it through that "Do I - really - need this?" and turned on every stone, I think it's for you. But I have so far just seeing doubts that not too many have ever giving it the slightest thought.
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Re: So how come all guitars don't have these frets?

Postby CS70 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:31 pm

Honch wrote:Me too

Well, now you almost got me interested in trying one one more time! :D

But yeah, I doubt that there's many people who's crazy for one. It's a bit like robot tuners, vaguely interesting but nothing that one (well, I) would go crazy for. It would be good to avoid intonation issues in all circumstances, but since the solution in the end is so simple (quick micro-retune if you put up a capo up on the fretboard and strings erring on the slack side so you can micro bend to the right pitch using your ears and muscle memory), or just have another guitar set up... there's little reason for more gimmicks.

If he can make it sound good, there's no need of anything more.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_wcFUbXExk :)
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Re: So how come all guitars don't have these frets?

Postby DC-Choppah » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:39 pm

Great responses guys. Lots of good info. Thanks Honch for helping me understand.

So I can reduce some of the variables here that affect intonation.

So let's say that:
1) I choose my strings and stick with them. I do play with a wound third and like the sound of heavy strings and have got used to them.
2) I don't use a capo.
3) I don't play bar chords. All of my chords have only one finger pressing on the string. Never really thought about that before, but jazz chords really do have one finger per string.

I believe that what you guys are saying is that given the above, if I have my guitar intonation set properly, then the straight frets really are already in the right place. Right?
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Re: So how come all guitars don't have these frets?

Postby Watchmaker » Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:25 pm

Intonation is a function of relative string length and on guitars is inherently compensated for at the bridge.

That is to say, the diameter of a string affects it's actual length, so the narrower ones would travel slightly farther if the saddle were straight and level. This is why you see a both a bow and diagonal on the bridge of acoustics, often with a set back between the b and high e, and why electrics (mostly) have individually adjustable saddles. Fretboard radius and string diameter must be compensated for. The rationale ( I assume) behind different fretting schema is to shift that compensation from the bridge to the fretboard.

While there are inherently variations in accuracy as you move up a standard fret board, they: a) are tiny, b) heavily influence the overall tonality of the instrument, and c) represent compromises of construction that allow players to switch instruments easily. From a builder's perspective, the math's easier and nearly every great guitar lick has been accomplished on the proven model, so innovation at the margin remains a niche activity.
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Re: So how come all guitars don't have these frets?

Postby Honch » Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:01 pm

DC-Choppah wrote:Great responses guys. Lots of good info. Thanks Honch for helping me understand.
You're welcome. Since no on else thought of this, which I think someone would do by now, since all these systems has been around for a while. I find it peculiar no one else lays the cards down.

DC-Choppah wrote:I believe that what you guys are saying is that given the above, if I have my guitar intonation set properly, then the straight frets really are already in the right place. Right?
Answer: Yes.

My tip to most people, is that as fast as you have string gauge where you can do vibrato or bend any string, it's already too flexible (inherent elasticity) to be set up perfect like a piano string or tuning, which doesn't waver from it's pitch once tuned. My intonation tips for regular fretted guitar, is actually not to intonate 0 cent on the regular 12th fret harmonic and fretted note (or 13th fret, with a capo on first fret). Me myself usually sets the intonation a little tiny bit too flat, especially at the G-string which has less tension and is one of the most flexible strings when tuned regularly. But, my intonation set up won't work for you. I can't set up intonation for you. If I set up intonation for my fingers on your guitar, it may sound un-intonated in your hands. And vice versa.

Given a regular tuning at a Strat scale neck of 25" and a run of the mill 010-046 string set, I usually just let the D-string intonate 0 cent at the 12th fret. The G-string almost 3 cents flat, as well as the low E-string 3 cent flat. All the others between -1 cent flat, and 2 cent flat. If i play one note with one finger and hears a tiny tiny out of tuneness somewhere I just dig in and press a little more, no big deal. Barré chords turns out a little better. But still as always and will ever be: A compromise.

I've always been wary of "sweetened tunings" where you should tune open strings at offsets which totally beats me. If I play with other instruments, and the open strings are not in tune with the others giving a "nice chorus sound" I am not interested at all, and anyone who swears by such a tuning system is full of it. And I can tell them that upfront if I like. Open strings should be tuned perfect and at 0 cent deviance. All things depends too on how high and fat frets you have, and action, relief of the neck of course. Everything affects each other.
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Re: So how come all guitars don't have these frets?

Postby Honch » Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:19 pm

Here's yet another experiment you can try out on your existing guitars, any. Even those with Earvana nut, True Temperament frets, fanned frets, or Buzz Feitern Tuning System.

They should be made with a regular nut, and not any zero fret. Now here we go:

1. Tune open strings in an accurate tuner (strobe etc) to 0 cent, dead on, just nail it. Exactly in pitch.
2. Now, just PRESS (don't play) the first fret of - say - G# on the g-string.
3. Play the OPEN string adjacent to that one, or the open A-string.
4. Read the tuner, and reading of that string... :smirk:

Come back here with results! Chances are that the open A-string DROPS in pitch and gets 2-3 cents flat. Now, guess what happens with all the open string if you finger a regular A major chord with three fingers on the second fret, of D,G, and B string? Don't play those you've pressed down, just play open string and watch the tuner while you're taking these fingers on and off.

Zero fret guitars doesn't suffer from this. Or guitars like strats, teles with nuts that are in a slot that is NOT glued. It's the nut that flexes too much downwards due to the squashiness and softness of wood, or glue underneath. The result of on string is increasing tension and pushes the nut down a bit into the fretboard underneath or whatever wood there is. I e the nut ought to be cut up in 6 individual bits one for each string instead. But since that is very expensive and unwieldy, it's better to stick a zero fret there.

This can be a hit and miss with guitars. I've tried posh high end boutique classical guitars even, that one did this, and the other didn't. And those ones are even nylon strings with way less tension than steel strings. If you have a guitar that DOESN'T DO this chances are that it is a very good guitar, and you DON'T NEED any TT fret, or any other intonation compensation system.

Provided you have a non floating tremolo guitar, just a hardtail bridge guitar, you can do this test too:

5. Whack the low open E string while just fret the 12th fret on the b-string (but do not play that b-string) and bend it SILENTLY upwards firmly as far as you can, while just listening to the open E-string, the open E-string drops in pitch.

I e it behaves just like it would have a floating tremolo while it really hasn't. Poor build. No TT will cure you of this. Most Gibsons SG's suffers from this, too, because of their to frail neck design and softer woods.
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Re: So how come all guitars don't have these frets?

Postby Honch » Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:24 pm

Keeping regular frets does give you a lot of other options:

1. To be able to vary your string gauges and tunings. To a very lare degree.
2. String height variations.
3. Neck relief variations.
4. Second hand resale value of the guitar. Say the buyer uses thick gauge strings, or very thin ones? Do you tell him "Hey you got to change that TT neck out in that case"? :tongue:

While sticking to regular equal temperament, as it always has.
Now, you have to use individual bridge saddles for each string anyway.
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Re: So how come all guitars don't have these frets?

Postby zenguitar » Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:34 am

When it comes to sweetened tunings, true temperament and Buzz Feiten, I've lined up the ducks and shot them down many times over the years here. I was glad to take a back seat and let someone else do the shooting for a change :)

Andy :beamup:
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Re: So how come all guitars don't have these frets?

Postby DC-Choppah » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:51 am

Honch wrote:2. Now, just PRESS (don't play) the first fret of - say - G# on the g-string.
3. Play the OPEN string adjacent to that one, or the open A-string.
4. Read the tuner, and reading of that string... :smirk:

OK, I tried on all my guitars. But I didn't use a tuner, I used my ears with my ear on the body. None of my guitars had a change to the open A string save two:
1) guitar which is a 1970s American Strat with a hard tail. This instrument has heavy strings and high action so you push pretty hard on that G#. I can hear the A string go slightly flat. Cool! Never thought of that.

2) Altimira Gypsy Jazz M01F with Bigtone bridge/piezo pickup. This also has high tension heavy strings, I can make the open A go flat by pressing hard on the G# of the G string.

None of my other guitars had any pitch change that I could discern though doing the same thing. But that American Strat has the heaviest of strings and the Altimira has the heaviest strings it will take.

BTW The other guitars that did not change pitch that I could hear were:
1981 Ibanez Blazer (rebuilt)
Peerless Monarch
Epiphone Swingster with Bigsby tremelo
1980 Washburn HB35
Epiphone EJ-200N acoustic
1980s Peavey Falcon (Strat copy) with Whammy

These guys have medium heavy strings I guess, definitely not as high tension as the two guitars that went out of tune slightly. Except the Peavey Falcon has very light strings.

I thought about this a bit though and I think the way I play and use only just enough force to push on the strings, this effect doesn't really happen in real life. I have to push down unnaturally hard to make it happen. At least to me ear.


Honch wrote:5. Whack the low open E string while just fret the 12th fret on the b-string (but do not play that b-string) and bend it SILENTLY upwards firmly as far as you can, while just listening to the open E-string, the open E-string drops in pitch.

I e it behaves just like it would have a floating tremolo while it really hasn't. Poor build. No TT will cure you of this. Most Gibsons SG's suffers from this, too, because of their to frail neck design and softer woods.

The Peavey Falcon (which is a tremolo) has a huge effect here. The open E goes way out.
I couldn't make any of the other guitars have an effect I could hear. Even the Epiphone Swingster with a Bigsby tremelo and pretty heavy strings had no discernible pitch change.

I am pretty fussy about intonation and have gotten rid of a lot guitars, saving these, so maybe I have guitars that stay pretty well in tune by process of elimination.

The acoustics give me the most grief, but they also have the least amount of intonation adjustments. The Altamira seems to change its intonation with the weather. So I am always adapting a bit consciously when I play it. The vagueness of the Altamira's intonation got me looking into intonation issues as I explored if there was something I am overlooking (I am often the last to the party to figure out these gear tricks). Those sgwiggly frets look silly but seemed to be correcting something fundamentally wrong about the guitar. But alas not.

I guess my fundamental problem with the Altamira is that there is no individual intonation adjustment on the bridge.
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Re: So how come all guitars don't have these frets?

Postby Honch » Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:46 am

DC-Choppah wrote: I can hear the A string go slightly flat. Cool! Never thought of that.
That's what I meant. One never thought of that. Now, if you'd use a very accurate tuner like Sonic Research TurboTuner with 0,002 cents accurate you will "see" it. And it's these 3-4 cents deviance that these companies are aiming at. Now, think if the G sharp is played too sharp, on a E major chord, and the open strings "goes down" a bit you increase the interval, and internal difference between all notes. No wonder it sounds a tad sour, even if it is tuned to a tee and intonated to a tee.

DC-Choppah wrote:None of my other guitars had any pitch change that I could discern though doing the same thing. But that American Strat has the heaviest of strings and the Altimira has the heaviest strings it will take.
Well then there you go. You have GOOD guitars! No need for TT. Mind you what would happen if you JUST changed out these guitars (where it occurs on) to a TT neck? :smirk: It would perform the same!

DC-Choppah wrote:BTW The other guitars that did not change pitch that I could hear were:
1981 Ibanez Blazer (rebuilt)
Peerless Monarch
Epiphone Swingster with Bigsby tremelo
1980 Washburn HB35
Epiphone EJ-200N acoustic
1980s Peavey Falcon (Strat copy) with Whammy
Good guitars then! Even with Bigsby tremolo. I find no Gibson SG and the like in there, so you're good to go.


DC-Choppah wrote:I thought about this a bit though and I think the way I play and use only just enough force to push on the strings, this effect doesn't really happen in real life. I have to push down unnaturally hard to make it happen. At least to me ear.
Yes, that's why I said no one presses the same. I don't press as light as you do. One DO press harder than necessary when you have extremely low frets, in order to dampen the string properly, otherwise it will buzz. You get a buzz free tone, but it is way too sharp. Try this on first fret on any wound G-string on an acoustic guitar with heavy gauge strings and "fretless wonder" like frets.



DC-Choppah wrote:The acoustics give me the most grief, but they also have the least amount of intonation adjustments. The Altamira seems to change its intonation with the weather. So I am always adapting a bit consciously when I play it. The vagueness of the Altamira's intonation got me looking into intonation issues as I explored if there was something I am overlooking (I am often the last to the party to figure out these gear tricks). Those sgwiggly frets look silly but seemed to be correcting something fundamentally wrong about the guitar. But alas not.

You got it! Thumbs up! If any guitar changes intonation due to season and weather, how can TT (or anything else) cure this? I agree with you on acoustics, they are a liability. Always.

DC-Choppah wrote:I guess my fundamental problem with the Altamira is that there is no individual intonation adjustment on the bridge.

Yes, you're right. There's no way around that. Ever.
Honch
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Re: So how come all guitars don't have these frets?

Postby Honch » Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:49 am

zenguitar wrote:When it comes to sweetened tunings, true temperament and Buzz Feiten, I've lined up the ducks and shot them down many times over the years here. I was glad to take a back seat and let someone else do the shooting for a change :)

Andy :beamup:

:D :bouncy: ;)
Honch
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Re: So how come all guitars don't have these frets?

Postby Sam Spoons » Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:16 am

Interesting discussion. I have an Emerald X7 which is probably the best intonated guitar I own. It is an acoustic built from carbon fibre. I get the point about the open strings going flat when another string is fretted, that’s just physics but I’m not convinced it’s ‘cos of the nut ’squashing down’ into the soft neck wood or glue. I suspect it’s more likely because the whole system bends slightly. Try this, play a single note and push the neck forward gently, on almost any guitar the pitch will drop a little, when you fret a string you must increase the tension on that string slightly which will pull the neck forward slightly which must slacken the tension on the other strings. Whether this is perceivable (definitely on a flexible system like a floating trem or an SG with a very flexible neck) or not (Emerald X7, Status carbon fibre through neck bass for example) will depend on how stiff the system is.

I’m not a believer that zero frets are better or worse than a well cut nut, I have one guitar with a zero fret and several with conventional nuts. I’m nursing a cold just now but when I can be bothered I’ll go and try the experiment on my guitars while plugged into my Peterson StroboStomp tuner, I’m pretty sure most if not all will show some dip in pitch of the open strings when another string is fretted, whether it’s enough to make them sound noticeably out of tune I don’t know (my ear for pitch is pretty good I think but not exceptional).

Where I do agree with Honch, Zen and t'others is that TT systems are smoke and mirrors and a guitar that doesn't go appreciably out of tune due to these effects is undoubtedly a better guitar than one that does (all else being equal, if it sounds like sh1t3..........). :D
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Sam Spoons
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Re: So how come all guitars don't have these frets?

Postby Sam Spoons » Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:21 pm

Having tried the 'A string test' on 5 of my guitars I cannot measure a change of pitch even when fretting 3 other strings as hard as I can at the first fret (way harder than I would fret them whilst playing). This with a Peterson StroboStomp which is the most accurate tuner I have.

The guitars were :-
Eastwood Custom Acoustic (24.75" scale)
'80s Japanese D45 (Mountain, 25.5" scale, 13-56 tuned a full step down)
Rob Aylward Selmer Style (26.5" scale, tailpiece and floating bridge)
Emerald X7 (24" scale 11-46 concert pitch)
Custom '61Strat, (trem bridge flat to body)
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Sam Spoons
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Finally taking this recording lark seriously (and recording my Gypsy Jazz CD)........

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