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Screening / Shielding a Rear Routed Strat

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Re: Screening / Shielding a Rear Routed Strat

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:49 am
by Wonks
They are Kinmans, so should be hum-cancelling pickups. Unless the winding machine added the wrong number of turns to the cancelling coils.

Re: Screening / Shielding a Rear Routed Strat

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:01 pm
by Jay Menon
I’m not experiencing 50Hz hum at all. The pickups are working fine - brand new set of Impersonator 54s.

What I am experiencing is inductive buzz when I take my hands off the bridge/strings ...

Re: Screening / Shielding a Rear Routed Strat

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:16 pm
by Wonks

Re: Screening / Shielding a Rear Routed Strat

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:27 pm
by Wonks
So I'd paint the pickup cavities with the conductive paint - not forgetting that this will need to be grounded somehow to work best.

(Just realised that it was solder and not missing tape on the control cover - d'oh!)

Re: Screening / Shielding a Rear Routed Strat

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:29 pm
by zenguitar
As Wonks said, it's hard to be definative when you don't have the guitar infront of you.

It might just be a poor string ground, but standard guitar wiring is seriously wishy-washy. Standard circuits from the original 50's designs have been improved with screening tape and paint, so you end up with multiple ground paths together with a bunch of inductors, resistors and capacitors that interact in all sorts of ways that can vary depending on how switches and pots are set.

That's why it's so frustrating trying to chase these problems down.

Andy :beamup:

Re: Screening / Shielding a Rear Routed Strat

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:40 pm
by Jay Menon
Thanks everyone, for being so helpful.

Before I unsolder all the connections and put it together again - and just to make things clear ...

The guitar works fine, the pickups sound beautiful. My only problem is that when I take my hands off the strings/bridge the guitar starts buzzing.

Is this symptomatology consistent with a faulty earth connection to the spring claw? If so, then I shall take everything apart and put it together again (painful job).

Re: Screening / Shielding a Rear Routed Strat

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:27 am
by zenguitar
That's the problem Jay, there's just no way to offer you any certainty. Such are the whims of passive guitar wiring.

The only possible additional test I could suggest would be a lead with a crocodile clip on one end connected to the sleeve of a 1/4" jack plug at the other. You could clip it to a string at the headstock and plug the jack plug into an amp or mixer. That would give you a direct string ground. If that resolves the problem when you take your hands off the strings you can be confident you have a string ground problem. But It won't tell you exactly what the details of the problem are. However, if you have a flux pen it would be worth reflowing the string ground connection to the back of the pot first.

Now I hope you see the frustration that lead me to my practice of pulling out the loom, cleaning and servicing the pots, sockets, and switches and rewiring from scratch. In 20 plus years that has only failed me once (and I am convinced that the niggling low level buzz on that strat is more to do with the roller nut, on paper it can take 11's but I have a feeling that a mechanical buzz too low to pick up by ear is affecting the string vibration just enough to come through on the pick up when you up the gain).

Every other time, it has always been quicker to rewire than spend hours with a meter trying to track down the specific cause.

Good luck.

Andy :beamup:

Re: Screening / Shielding a Rear Routed Strat

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:45 am
by Jay Menon
Thanks Andy and Wonks - I can totally see your points...

A scratch plate based pickup set is so much easier to re-wire - but I'll get down this weekend and re-do this guitar, hopefully things will work better. I'll also use the opportunity to re-paint the pickup cavities.

Is shielding the pickup cavities standard practice on a Les Paul for instance? (I ask since an LP is course conceptually similar to a rear routed strat)

Re: Screening / Shielding a Rear Routed Strat

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:23 am
by Wonks
As the buzz comes from taking your hands off the strings, that shows that the strings are grounded properly. Your body is being given a good connection to ground, and either a) any electrical noise your body is picking up/giving off is taken to ground so it doesn't affect the pickups or b) your body now acts as an effective soak for a lot of the EMI floating around (or a mixture of both).

Shielding the pickup cavities isn't standard for a Les Paul (though it's a good idea for those fitted with P90s). Gibson keep changing their control cavity arrangements, but on my very new 2018 LP Classic Goldtop (with P90s), they've got the pots connected to a metal shield plate (like they have done in the past), which helps. they've also added a small tag board, which minimises the soldering they have to do to the back of the pots.

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With covered pickups with shielded cables, there's not a lot of point in adding more shielding to the pickup cavities. Even with uncovered humbuckers, you normally don't get enough noise problems to make shielding the cavities necessary. Also on most guitars with non scratchplate mounted pickups, it's near impossible to shield the cable passageways to them, so you'll never manage complete shielding coverage. But every bit of extra shielding will bring the noise levels down slightly, so if you are getting noise issues, then it's certainly worth adding as much shielding as you can.

The noise has to come from somewhere though, so unless you are near to a powerful radio mast, it's worth checking around your house for any sources of electrical noise which can be turned off, especially when recording, e.g. dimmer switches and fluorescent lights.

Re: Screening / Shielding a Rear Routed Strat

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:35 am
by Hugh Robjohns
Jay Menon wrote:My only problem is that when I take my hands off the strings/bridge the guitar starts buzzing.

Picking up on a point Max (SSG) made in his characteristically brief and enigmatic way earlier, ;-) the problem could be that the issue here is actually the grounding (or lack of it) of you as the player.

For example, when you touch the (already effectively grounded) strings your body will become grounded, and thus act as an additional shield around all the guitar's sensitive high-impedance bits. But when you become ungrounded you lose that shielding ability and/or you may even act as a aerial to inject noise into the back of the guitar.

You could do some informative experiments with a separate grounding lead onto your wrist, for example, and/or with a grounded sheet of tin foil between you and the back of the guitar to see what effect that has on your unwanted noise problem. That might then give some clues as to the direction to move in to fix this...

H

Re: Screening / Shielding a Rear Routed Strat

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:17 am
by ef37a
There might be continuity between the trem claw and the jack sleeve but are all the strings actually bonded to the guitar's earth?

***t or bust test. Wrap the whole body of the guitar in turkey foil and make sure that bonds to earth. If the bugger still buzzes after that (wear Marigolds) there is little more you can do!

Dave.

Re: Screening / Shielding a Rear Routed Strat

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:36 pm
by Jay Menon
Thanks everyone. I think I might have figured out what the problem is.

On a conventionally routed Stratocaster the body of the switch/and the two fixing screws, bond to the aluminium foil on the rear surface of the scratch plate.

This guitar being rear routed, the switch only attaches to the graphite painted floor of the cavity. The body of the switch isn’t grounded. When I touch the two anchoring screws of the selector switch the buzz disappears.

When I do a continuity test between the screws attaching the pickup selector switch and other ground points I’m not getting continuity.

I’m thinking, what I probably need to do is to take out the selector switch, apply foil to the base of it and then re-fit it. (I tried soldering connecting wire from one of the selector switch screws to a pot casing but it isn’t “taking“ on the screw...

Re: Screening / Shielding a Rear Routed Strat

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:43 pm
by Wonks
It's probably not the only cause, but it can only help matters.

You could fit a suitably-sized crimp washer to a bit of wire, then fit that on the switch, and solder the other end to the back of a pot.

Re: Screening / Shielding a Rear Routed Strat

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:43 pm
by Hugh Robjohns
Alternatively, a solder tag and a shake-proof washer fitted between the switch body and wood, with an earth wire linking it back to the guitar's single earth point might be quicker and easier.

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H

Re: Screening / Shielding a Rear Routed Strat

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:14 pm
by Jay Menon
Hugh, if that idea was off the top of your head, you are an absolute genius (and even if it came from previous experience that still makes you a wise man).

Solder tag utilised - robust electrical continuity achieved between selector switch screw and tone pot casing.

Buzz however, sadly not reduced...

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