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Re: Marshalls...

Postby blinddrew » Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:21 pm

I'm assuming that it's the script for the next Star Trek movie being leaked one phrase at a time... ;)
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Re: Marshalls...

Postby ef37a » Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:37 pm

adrian_k wrote:I love reading this sort of thing even though I understand not one word :)

Happy to oblige you Adrian but 95% of the words used are perfectly normal English. If there are things you do not understand and wish to learn I would be happy to attempt an explanation and I am sure Will feels the same?

I for example have a very tenuous grasp of computer matters but it is only by stickiing my head up and asking "stupid" questions that I have managed to improve a little of my understanding...What a good forum is for ?

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Re: Marshalls...

Postby adrian_k » Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:04 pm

Thanks Dave I appreciate the offer. Problem is I don’t even know what question to ask.

It’s worse than that - a few years ago I did an online introductory electronics course. I got over 90%. I even spotted an incorrect answer in the exam. But I can’t apply any of it, and through lack of use have forgotten everything. My brain doesn’t seem to work that way. If it had been more hands on maybe I would have understood more, I don’t know.

Anyway sorry for OT excursion...
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Re: Marshalls...

Postby Hewesy » Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:22 pm

ef37a wrote:
adrian_k wrote:I love reading this sort of thing even though I understand not one word :)

Happy to oblige you Adrian but 95% of the words used are perfectly normal English. If there are things you do not understand and wish to learn I would be happy to attempt an explanation and I am sure Will feels the same?

I for example have a very tenuous grasp of computer matters but it is only by stickiing my head up and asking "stupid" questions that I have managed to improve a little of my understanding...What a good forum is for ?

Dave.

Well I happen to be an IT Manager so perhaps some handy translation swaps could be arranged?!

Thanks for the tips on the mods, interesting it would be hard to find something unmodded.

Any thoughts on valve brands offering EQ changes? I keep seeing people suggest x valve offers more treble than y brand, is that likely or are we talking minimal change?

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Re: Marshalls...

Postby ef37a » Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:26 pm

IT? Oh! I would not waste your time H! I think I have got about as good as I am going to get.

On the "valve EQ/tonal differences"? Very agnostic matey. Yes, people I respect on forums SAY " JJs atr this or that and TADs are shite" but quite honestly I could never hear any difference (but then I am clinically deaf!)

Before you blow a ton on some highly praised 'Cryo' tech reflect upon one fact. I have read reams of statements of how a certain valve has made 'night and day' difference to an amplifier. NEVER with any of those claims has there been a supporting before & after recording. Yes, if you swap a valve for a different type, an 'AY' for an 'AX ' say you might hear some tonal change but that will be because the circuit is now WRONG for that valve and it will not be working at its optimum bias or loading. Also, ad hoc swapping of pre amp valves can lead to smoke!

I was charged at Bs to make an ECC83 changeover device so that two different makes could be instantly compared on the fly. The result was was that a collection of ears of some of the most experience people and players in the industry said "Yes, there is A difference, especially when pushed hard but it is so small that it does not matter. The test was to make sure valve inventory was valid across a couple of brands.

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Re: Marshalls...

Postby Hewesy » Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:07 pm

No worries Dave, offer stands though if useful.

Presumed as much, I have swapped a no name valve for JJ Gold and yes, it was noticeable but then again, I swapped it so can I really say for sure?!

I have swapped 12AX7 for 12AT7 and yes, again noticed a difference but as you say probably due to circuit imbalance vs "improvement".

I was just curious around the whole EQ element - I couldn't see how a valve could roll of treble or boost mids etc.

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Re: Marshalls...

Postby ef37a » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:46 pm

" I couldn't see how a valve could roll of treble...."

Ah well now, you see a valve is a 'resistor', the 12 AX7 'looks like' about 60k Ohms and so any capacitors connected with it will form a filter circuit.
The 12AT7 is lower, around 22k iirc and so will change the frequency of those filters but as mentioned, the bias will not be right for an AT7 and so it will probably distort at a lower drive level than the AX7.

When it comes to 'improved' or boutique valves of the same type, then I, as a technician have a problem. Valves are incredibly precisely engineered structures the size and spacing of the electrodes is critical if one is to meet its specification, that is the published papaer parameters. For a circuit to work as designer those parameters must be spot on. Things like the resistance ^ and 'Amplification Factor' or 'mu' (100 for the 12AX7 but you don't get all of that) HAVE to be as published or the valve won't work as required.

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Re: Marshalls...

Postby Folderol » Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:23 pm

I would add a small caveat to Dave's excellent post.
There are two things that might be improved in some designs. The first is improved support structure to reduce microphony, and the other is the routing/shielding of the heaters to reduce hum pickup (although these days world+dog feeds them with DC).
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Re: Marshalls...

Postby ef37a » Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:34 am

Folderol wrote:I would add a small caveat to Dave's excellent post.
There are two things that might be improved in some designs. The first is improved support structure to reduce microphony, and the other is the routing/shielding of the heaters to reduce hum pickup (although these days world+dog feeds them with DC).

Yes, and example of that is the TAD 7025 High Grade. That is ELECTRICALLY identical to the ECC83/12AX7 but of more rigid construction and, I assume, selected for better noise.

It should also be remembered by the cork sniffing guitar amp tweaks that many of these valves were developed for NON audio, or a least not critical quality audio purposes? The 12AT7 is a good example. Originally used in TVs (Google "sync separator") and some hum, distortion and microphonics did not matter a jot!

The 12BAH7 used in a current (superb!) 5 watt amp was also developed for TV and 'scopes and has an anode voltage rating of 2kV pulse!

DC heating? Yes Will, very easy to do now with modern components, regulators and such and really the only way to go for printed circuit design. The latter is frowned upon by the 'Old School' but PCB build is JUST as good a P2P or turret construction, is far more consistent sample to sample and is VASTLY cheaper and that puts excellent designs into the hands of those who could otherwise not afford them.

BTW the 7025 HG is an excellent replacement 12AX7 and, last I looked, not silly money.

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Re: Marshalls...

Postby Alanqa » Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:37 am

I just bought the Marshall Origin 50head and 2x12 vertical cab.

I too felt I needed some Marshall in my life. My previous amps have been: Fender Horror deluxe iii, Fender Bassbreaker 18/30 and Fender Bassbreaker 007 head and 1x12 cab.

The Origin comes with footswitch for gain boost/effects loop. No reverb (but you do get the effects loop). Gain with pull out boost (or just use the footswitch). Tilt (changes the input from muddy to clear - I think this is to replace the 4input plexi design where people would bridge the bright and normal inputs. The tilt control let's you vary this.
Then the usual treble middle bass and volume and presence. Finally there is a power attenuator switch that goes from 1/2 a watt (louder than you'd think) to 10 watts (loud enough to rehearse with) to 50 watts aka Arrrrrrrrrgggggghhhhhhh!

Soundwise I largely play Gretsch guitars though occasionally pick up the PRS SE. Gretsch Filtertrons have the clarity of strat pickups and the warmth of a Les Paul combined with a sweet woody hollowness you get from a 335. Filtertrons are not weak pickups and I can get serious ACDC out of the Marshall just by cranking the controls. (Usually 1/2 watt is loud enough for me). Without a boost or drive pedal Malcolm Young or Rolling Stones crunch is as heavy as this amp will go. But that is not the whole story.

Because the amps break up is much more subtle and paced than most 'drive channels' on modern amps it makes it an amazing pedal platform. With the gain backed off to 12 o'clock and the power setting on middle or high the valves are barely ticking over and the tone is warm clear and perfect for any clean playing. Again with the Falcon I can go to Shadows like clarity and twang, sweet funk, sharp reggae, mellow jazz. It really is an amp for all seasons.

Anybody want to buy a Fender Bassbreaker 007 head and cab?
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Re: Marshalls...

Postby ef37a » Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:24 am

Alanq's post adds credence to the point that you do not need to drive the bits off output valves nor practically rip the cones out of the speakers to get a good tone.

But the myth persists. The fact is that most of the OD tone of a guitar amp resides in the pre amp stages and the output stage merely adds 'colour'. PIs? They are practically high fidelity due to the large amount of cathode feedback (sorry, getting tekky again!) and are VERY difficult to push into distortion.

So, why to people like insanely loud amps? Adrenalin! The 'Roller Coaster" effect. In nature loud noises mean danger but when we experience scary things but know we cannot be hurt we love the rush.

Yes, EL34s give that slightly 'harder' Marshall tone as apposed to the slightly softer 6L6 but it is subtle and the effect's greatest use is to market amplifiers!

Dave.
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Re: Marshalls...

Postby CS70 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:04 pm

Alanqa wrote:Fender Horror deluxe iii

Was the hotrod that bad? :bouncy:
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Re: Marshalls...

Postby ore_terra » Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:34 pm

ef37a wrote:Alanq's post adds credence to the point that you do not need to drive the bits off output valves nor practically rip the cones out of the speakers to get a good tone.

But the myth persists. The fact is that most of the OD tone of a guitar amp resides in the pre amp stages and the output stage merely adds 'colour'. PIs? They are practically high fidelity due to the large amount of cathode feedback (sorry, getting tekky again!) and are VERY difficult to push into distortion.

So, why to people like insanely loud amps? Adrenalin! The 'Roller Coaster" effect. In nature loud noises mean danger but when we experience scary things but know we cannot be hurt we love the rush.

Yes, EL34s give that slightly 'harder' Marshall tone as apposed to the slightly softer 6L6 but it is subtle and the effect's greatest use is to market amplifiers!

Dave.

at the risk of starting a valve conversation with you... :lol:

I fully agree for this type of amp (this type of power valves), but wouldnt you say that power stage break is big part of the OD sound in other amps types? EL84's, 6V6's...
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Re: Marshalls...

Postby ef37a » Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:37 pm

ore_terra wrote:
ef37a wrote:Alanq's post adds credence to the point that you do not need to drive the bits off output valves nor practically rip the cones out of the speakers to get a good tone.

But the myth persists. The fact is that most of the OD tone of a guitar amp resides in the pre amp stages and the output stage merely adds 'colour'. PIs? They are practically high fidelity due to the large amount of cathode feedback (sorry, getting tekky again!) and are VERY difficult to push into distortion.

So, why to people like insanely loud amps? Adrenalin! The 'Roller Coaster" effect. In nature loud noises mean danger but when we experience scary things but know we cannot be hurt we love the rush.

Yes, EL34s give that slightly 'harder' Marshall tone as apposed to the slightly softer 6L6 but it is subtle and the effect's greatest use is to market amplifiers!

Dave.

at the risk of starting a valve conversation with you... :lol:

I fully agree for this type of amp (this type of power valves), but wouldnt you say that power stage break is big part of the OD sound in other amps types? EL84's, 6V6's...

I will agree that the lower the power output of the amp the more OPvalve you are going to get and EL84s are particularly 'dirty'. But, think on? The 'classic' OD sound is a Vox AC30 in full chat but Strweth! What decibel level!

It is always horses for courses. In a decent sized pub a good 15W (V6 or 84) into a V30 will easily be loud enough for 'edgey' on the limit OD tones but might be a bit lacking against a heavy drummer for cleans? Jump up to a 30 watter and you have most of the cleans but have to get bloody loud to distort the power valves.

A 50 watter will cover all bases, especially with a good pedal board.

NOW! I have to come clean here! I have not played guitar for many years but spent a lot of time with my son (who certainly can play!) in trying various mods. I listened intently to the seasoned players at Blackstar. I knew a good deal about valves but learnt a lot about GUITAR amplifiers from Bruce, Ian, Cliff and others.

The meteoric rise of home recording has seen guitarists especially frustrated when they try to capture that 'stadium sound' in a 1300cu ft bedroom and NOT wake the chavvy!

Dave.
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Re: Marshalls...

Postby Alanqa » Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:27 pm

fender horror deluxe! Whoever thought of autocorrect wants a kick in the bells. :bouncy:
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