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Re: not Marshalls

Postby arkieboy » Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:06 pm

Dave B wrote:Max (Studio Support Gnome) is a big Laney fan and has had a few of those Lionhearts. He loves them. I also think that Wonks may have one and he's fairly choosy when it comes to tone.

(although the former is currently on holiday and the latter is probably still high on nitro fumes from all the - amazing - spraying he's done recently..)

:D

Can confirm. DB and I suffer Max’s Lionheart every time we rehearse ;-) and Wonks runs one and a Two Rock AFAIR.

Personally I’ve Lived on the cusp between Vox and Marshall for decades. Those Laney amps would be where I would go had I not gone digital, and already owned a JMP1 and a pair of the Marshall valve power amps ...
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Re: not Marshalls

Postby Watchmaker » Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:48 pm

I had a Fender Hotrod for a while. Didn't do it for me. Not bad, not great. Sort of tepid in all the right places. Heavy too.

As far as cost goes, sometimes things just cost money. Cheaper than the UAD OX...
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Re: not Marshalls

Postby SecretSam » Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:35 am

OK so the Laney is clearly on the shortlist. That's democracy in action.

Do any of you have experience with the Blackstar Series 1 ? Cunning use of the search function reveals that a load of forumites were GASing for them about ten years ago, but there's not much about them recently. Are they just out of fashion, or did the internet collectively decide that there is a problem with them?

Watchmaker, that's welcome feedback on the Fender. I recently read separate interviews with US jazz gods Mike Stern and John Schofield. Both play Fenders, and the reason they gave was the same: they can always specify that the promoter hires one, which means that they get a familiar amp wherever they go without having to cart one around. Good-enough amps, and found everywhere. Both had come to the conclusion that the minor benefits of special gear were completely overshadowed by the hassle of traveling with it.

I guess that's one difference between a working professional and an enthusiastic hobbyist. Other differences probably include practice and talent :-)
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Re: not Marshalls

Postby Hewesy » Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:49 pm

That's a good point, a real feature of the Premier Guitar rig rundowns is those player who constantly tour with no amp to keep things simple.

Usually they have a decent drive pedal they rely on to get the amp into the right spot.

And funnily enough most specify a Fender of some type - usually prefixed with "yeah they suck but get rented loads and therefore are typically maintained or at least will get through the gig".

On which note my other thought was a Blackstar Sheriff pedal however I've read that the power amp still isn't going to get "Marshall" tone due to the EL34's - plus nowhere seems to stock them in store either which is a bit of a pain. I hate returning kit, always feel bad for the store.

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Re: not Marshalls

Postby SecretSam » Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:14 pm

Dave rather cheered me up when he wrote that power amp distortion is a bit of a myth (can't remember whether it was here or in The Other Place).

Apparently most distortion is in the preamp, which I would guess is a bit easier to delegate to pedals.

Next puzzle: if valves are so important, why are almost all the hallowed boutique pedals solid state?
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Re: not Marshalls

Postby ManFromGlass » Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:18 pm

Yes, what a brilliant puzzle. Anything to do with too many valves along the signal path?
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Re: not Marshalls

Postby SecretSam » Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:40 pm

I don't know enough electronics to judge whether you are kidding or not. It's been a long day.
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Re: not Marshalls

Postby ManFromGlass » Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:52 am

Actually serious - I have a vague memory of reading about recording that someone suggested running your signal through too many valve devices, valve pre, valve compressor, valve effects etc, was not a good thing. I can’t recall why.
Multiple valves would effect a guitar signal so perhaps that is one reason why so many pedals are solid state. I don’t have an electronics background either.
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Re: not Marshalls

Postby Sam Spoons » Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:46 am

I suspect most stomp boxes are solid state is 'cos it's cheaper and easier to build them. Valves in amps use high voltages , usually in excess of 200VDC which are hard to derive in a small stomp box, most of the few valve driven stompers use lower voltages which are a bit of a fudge I guess.
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Re: not Marshalls

Postby SecretSam » Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:16 pm

The voltage delivery makes sense. Cost ... maybe, maybe not. Some high-end pedals cost almost as much as a decent amp (more if you include Klons) so the makers have a bit of room in their margins.

Either way, if a solid state pedal can bring magic mojo fairy dust, why can't a solid state amp?
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Re: not Marshalls

Postby Sam Spoons » Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:38 pm

SecretSam wrote:Either way, if a solid state pedal can bring magic mojo fairy dust, why can't a solid state amp?

Who knows, we guitar players are strange and incomprehensible creatures :D
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Re: not Marshalls

Postby ef37a » Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:22 pm

SecretSam wrote:Dave rather cheered me up when he wrote that power amp distortion is a bit of a myth (can't remember whether it was here or in The Other Place).

Apparently most distortion is in the preamp, which I would guess is a bit easier to delegate to pedals.

Next puzzle: if valves are so important, why are almost all the hallowed boutique pedals solid state?

Well, I lied Sam! No, not really but, like most things to do with Sound and especially guitar OD sound, it depends!

Take a 50W EL34 amp into a 4X12 100dB/W/mtr cab? Run the bits off it and yes, 'king glorious sound (gets old after 2 hrs with deffs on in a workshop tho' believe me!) but. Excruciatingly loud! Those valve are probably putting out 70-80 watts and the 10% distortion spec is 55W or so and THAT under lab conditions! So, OP stage is seriously distorting but, drop the power by ~3dB? At 25W that amp is pretty bloody hi fi, maybe 2 -4%thd super clean.

That preamble gets us to the main reason peeps come here, recording. Unless you have an extremely well proofed studio you cannot run that 50W rig at that level and most people at home cannot run at more than one or two 'valve' watts. The result is, most folks are looking for a good tone at lower volumes and that means the pre amp*.

Too many valve stages? Yes (again, sort of!) To get a good OD tone each stage need to distort in a particular way (one way is called "grid current" the other, "cut off) at the two extremes, or close to them, the valve gets very 'non-linear' but, go too far and you can shut it off momentarily and that sounds horrid. The reason there is an almost infinite variety of gitamp 'tones' is because we have a whole raft of frequencies, levels and EQs to play with and the ORDER of each stage can change the tone drastically.

Pedals: One effect of a pedal in front of a valve stage is to drive the first valve harder, maybe into some distortion. Even with the hottest passive pickup it is very hard to distort the first triode, but a pedal with say 20dB of gain and an output potentially some 6 volts or more peak to peak can do it easily and thus you start the OD process that much earlier in the chain.

Why does solid state sound ok in a pedal but put it in an amp and you get castigated? **** knows! You tell me! One of the best selling (and best amps IMHO) 'valve' amps on the market IS in effect a bloody good pedal circuit driving some valves but didn't the cork sniffing valve snobs give it a hard time!!

* Yes, there are power soaks that allow you to wear out your valves while you extract a few mW to harken unto without waking the chavvy. The very best of them get a very good rep, Motherload etc, but they are expensive.

The Series Ones seem to be available from PMT but not Andertons. They are very complex amplifiers (but still VERY reliable) with a unique power control system, very comprehensive tone controls and MIDI. Expensive but not as much as some 'boutique' amps.
Blackstar now market a huge range of products and I hope they are not over reaching themselves?



Dave (sorry for the ramble)
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Re: not Marshalls

Postby Hewesy » Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:04 am

ef37a wrote:Why does solid state sound ok in a pedal but put it in an amp and you get castigated? **** knows! You tell me! One of the best selling (and best amps IMHO) 'valve' amps on the market IS in effect a bloody good pedal circuit driving some valves but didn't the cork sniffing valve snobs give it a hard time!!

Really? What amp - clearly missed that...

Supro (I think) have just released something which is sold as a valve amp with built in boost/drive pedal so maybe that's a new amp category?

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Re: not Marshalls

Postby ef37a » Sat Sep 05, 2020 1:18 pm

"Supro (I think) have just released something which is sold as a valve amp with built in boost/drive pedal so maybe that's a new amp category?"

Nah, done more than ten years ago. The amplifier in question was the HT-5.

The company had released a successful range of pedals with a 300 volt valve circuit in them and 3 'all valve' amps of all valve signal path, the Artisans 15,30 and a 100W head. The idea was proposed (don't know who by) that "could we make an amp with the pedal circuitry in it but with a low power, 5W say output stage?"

Now the technical director and chief designer, Bruce hate Single Ended amps with a passion, in any case they have been done to death with EL84 or 6V6. So the Five has a push pull, fixed biased output stage using the rugged 12BH7 double triode (can handle 2kV!) and the drive circuitry is a modified HT pedal.

In every other respect it is a 'proper' guitar amp. Tapped speaker impedances, FX loop at both neg 10 and +4dBu and, rare on any guitar amp then, a headphone output which, moreover is 'emulated'. The Mk2 has a 12" speaker, and reverb. NO idea why SOS has never reviewed one? THE definitive studio amp with a superbly low noise output.

Unfortunately, when it was released some advertising copy said "New All Valve Five watt Combo"! The mistake was picked up by several 'knockers' and the amp had a pretty rough ride. Mind you! It seems everyone that tried one bought one! For a long time they could not make them fast enough!

The saddest part is that MANY 'valve' guitar amps have the odd transistor,FET or op amp in them, some very famous ones (I know of one that uses a primitive single transistor circuit to drive a graphic EQ.)

Dave.
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Re: not Marshalls

Postby Hewesy » Sat Sep 05, 2020 7:34 pm

Interesting, I have a HT Drive which I've never bonded too (better with the 12AT7) but I can see that now.

Hmm...

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