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Re: Machine Head

Postby zenguitar » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:35 pm

You're very welcome.

Andy :beamup:
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Re: Machine Head

Postby Sam Spoons » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:53 pm

Murray B wrote:I learn so much from the collective wisdom in this place.

Thanks Andy for sharing the link

http://www.edgeguitarservices.co.uk/rou ... /restring/

It also covered tuning here too and not falling into the trap of trying to make your chords sound perfect but accepting there is a balance and dealing with it... made me think that one as I'll mess with the fine tuning quite a lot to get it sounding as good as it can for the key I'm playing in.

Also all my gigging electric guitars have locking tuners - I've never had any trouble but I might put more of a wrap round the post than I have in the past having read the article.

:clap:

The link seems broken but is this the article? http://www.edgeguitarservices.co.uk/rout_serv/restring/
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Re: Machine Head

Postby Murray B » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:58 pm

Yep that's the one - thank you
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Re: Machine Head

Postby Johnsy » Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:09 pm

Sperzels for me.
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Re: Machine Head

Postby Wonks » Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:48 pm

zenguitar wrote: Any of the 3 gear ratios you asked about are fine. 1:16 was traditional in the 50's and 60's, 1:18 is more recent, 1:21 is a more modern option. Higher ratios theoretically offer more "accuracy" at the expense of more time spent winding the string onto the post. My view is that if you have problems tuning accurately, the problem lies somewhere other than the tuner.

Between 12:1 and 14:1 was a more typical ratio in the 50s and 60s, going from low to higher priced guitars. 14:1 or 15:1 is still a typical modern tuner ratio on low to medium priced guitars, but the general quality is so much higher than it used to be. Even really cheap enclosed Chinese tuners work well these days (though you do get the odd graunchy tuner - but I've also had that on some high-end Hipshots).

As Zen says here and elsewhere, tuners are rarely the problem. It's almost always the nut and then possibly the bridge saddles are the most likely causes of tuning issues (apart from unwinding ball ends on thin plain strings).

Higher tuner gear ratios allow you to move the string less per turn of the key, so hitting pitch on an electronic tuner within ±1 cent becomes that bit easier, allowing you to creep up to tune without overshooting and then undershooting as much. But even a 12:1 tuner, provided the string has been wound on properly and the gears aren't too worn, will hold the tuning well.

I've fitted quite a few different tuners on guitars recently, and I didn't really have any issues with any of them. I do find that vintage-style Klusons have their post holes lower than I think they should, so it's hard to get more than 1 1/2 turns on a low E (headstock thickness was pretty standard). But even then, tuning stability was still good. Grovers are always very smooth. I changed the height adjustable post + locking tuners (Gotoh I think), on a Fret King for someone and replaced them with staggered height Hipshots, as the HAP tuners, combined with the locking function were just too fiddly for me and kept moving or coming undone. Just trying to be a bit too clever.

But these things are all very personal and for some people, a tuner is a tuner, and for others, if it doesn't feel just right, then it needs to be replaced.

But they are one of the key connection points between the string and the guitar, so its worth doing regular checks and making sure the mounting screws and/or post nut are nice and tight. The headstock vibrates a lot and screws and nuts do come loose. I can guarantee that I will be able to turn the fixing nuts at least a couple of 1/4 turns on my guitars every time I check them. On some guitars I've set up for others, they've never been tightened since bought, and I can get two or three full turns on the nuts.

A lot of people spent time fixating on stop tailpieces being screwed down as close to the body as possible in order to reduce the amplitude of any possible backwards and forwards vibration, but totally ingnore the other end where the tuners are basically loose and the posts can move about by a much much greater amount.
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Re: Machine Head

Postby yaire » Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:18 am

Hi,

One thing I did not see mentioned is the hole size.
I have a tele on which I put Hipshot locking tuners.
These are for the 'vintage' sized holes (being smaller) so I needed to put other Hipshots on it than on my other guitars (I love the look of the open gear locking tuners)

I noticed that some really cheap guitars and Fenders tend to use smaller holes.

So I would suggest to check the hole size before ordering.
You could ream a bigger hole but I personally I am not very good at it.
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Re: Machine Head

Postby Wonks » Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:45 am

You can normally get adapter bushes to fit vintage style tuners in 10mm holes (the Kluson ones look a lot nicer and far more vintage than the Gotoh ones IMO). Some Fenders have slightly larger 10.5mm holes

Modern guitars with no vintage pretensions will almost always have 10mm tuner holes, whilst the vintage reissue style guitars will have the smaller 8.85mm hole size.

You also need to check the vintage tuner post hole size as some have 6mm and others 1/4"/6.35 mm diameter posts.

I've also found that the size variations on tuner posts and bushing holes normally means I have to play about matching bushings to tuners, as the tuners with slightly wider posts won't fit on the bushings with the slightly smaller holes.

But even though you can get the conversion bushings, if you want to try and fit vintage Kluson 6-in-line tuners to a modern Fender (or Fender style) guitar with modern tuners, check the hole centre spacing, which needs to be just right for the vintage tuners to work, as they butt-up against each other and share a common fixing screw between adjoining tuners. very often the spacing is a couple of mm too narrow or too wide. You can file away the edges of the tuners if the spacing is too narrow (but it's fussy work), but too wide is a lot harder to deal with and best forgotten about.
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Re: Machine Head

Postby ef37a » Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:56 am

Old cabinet makers son chipping in here (boom! Boom!)

Re different mounting hole positions? I would in any case plug the existing holes and start afresh.
Use pared down kebab sticks? The ones I buy locally seem a very nice straight grained hardwood, could be Ramin? (matchsticks are cheap, soft pine.)

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Re: Machine Head

Postby Wonks » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:21 am

There is the aesthetic aspect to consider when plugging and redrilling tuner holes, especially if you have a natural finish headstock. Very slight re-arrangement may end up with the bushing rim covering all the plug outline, but the bushing rims aren't that wide. The washers on threaded bushing tuners are a lot wider than the push-in bushings and so can cover up a lot more sins. But if you're fitting those, then you don't need vintage spacing.

I have seen people use plug cutters to cut a suitably sized plug from a similar looking piece of maple (or mahogany) with reasonable success, but it's still hard to hide that round edge.

Dave, I'm not talking about plugging the small 'anti-rotation' screw holes here, (hardwood cocktail sticks generally work well for me here, along with a dab of matching paint to hide them as best as possible) but the actual main tuner holes, so you'd need 10mm or larger diameter dowel. If your kebab sticks are thicker than 10mm, then you must be grilling some pretty hefty chunks of meat!
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Re: Machine Head

Postby ef37a » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:33 am

As you were Wonks. I am talking about not reusing the tiny fixing screw holes.

I don't do kebabs! I bought the sticks for wife to spear pickled baby beetroot..Horrible stuff!

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Re: Machine Head

Postby Funkyflash5 » Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:19 am

Fitted some Itty Bitty Gotoh tuners to the wife's electric violin, they've worked a charm. Impressively smooth at less than 12 grams per tuner!
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Re: Machine Head

Postby Sam Spoons » Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:13 am

ef37a wrote:I don't do kebabs! I bought the sticks for wife to spear pickled baby beetroot..Horrible stuff!

Dave.

Depends on the kebab, try this, chop some chicken thighs into bite sized pieces and marinade in sweet chilli sauce for a couple of hours then spear then on a kebab stick alternating with a slice of onion, mushroom and red/yellow/green pepper. In the oven for 25 mins and serve with your side dish of choice.

:blush: Oh, sorry, wrong thread...
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Re: Machine Head

Postby Wonks » Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:33 am

It all went wrong at 'mushroom'. :sick:
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Re: Machine Head

Postby ef37a » Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:34 am

Sam Spoons wrote:
ef37a wrote:I don't do kebabs! I bought the sticks for wife to spear pickled baby beetroot..Horrible stuff!

Dave.

Depends on the kebab, try this, chop some chicken thighs into bite sized pieces and marinade in sweet chilli sauce for a couple of hours then spear then on a kebab stick alternating with a slice of onion, mushroom and red/yellow/green pepper. In the oven for 25 mins and serve with your side dish of choice.

:blush: Oh, sorry, wrong thread...

Might do it for Crimble day! In Sainsburys yesterday looking for A turkey breast. "We" always used to have a small crown but now there is just me even that will hang about forever*...COULD I bloody fined a bit of turkey? Not on yer puff! Minced turkey, diced turkey, 'quick cook' turkey slices but no chunk of breast I could bung in'oven with some stuffing.

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Re: Machine Head

Postby Sam Spoons » Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:59 pm

We're just doing chicken this year, it's nicer than turkey anyway.

Wonks wrote:It all went wrong at 'mushroom'. :sick:

Just leave the mushrooms out then.... (just don't substitute pineapple).
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