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Kate Bush - Running up that Hill - main synth sound

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Re: Kate Bush - Running up that Hill - main synth sound

Postby desmond » Sat Oct 11, 2014 6:49 pm

That's a brassy pad patch - I know what you mean, it has some similar charatceristics, but it's not close to either of the sounds referenced in the threads - so no, it doesn't change anything in my view, I'm afraid :)
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Re: Kate Bush - Running up that Hill - main synth sound

Postby Barry Garlow » Sat Oct 11, 2014 7:43 pm

This is a great thread, but no pictures :)

Image
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Re: Kate Bush - Running up that Hill - main synth sound

Postby Richie Royale » Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:14 pm

desmond wrote:I think this guy read this thread... ;)

http://www.matrixsynth.com/2015/12/recreating-kates-b-famous...


I like the use of a crappy old video camera.
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Re: Kate Bush - Running up that Hill - main synth sound

Postby tea for two » Fri Dec 18, 2015 9:59 am

desmond wrote:Zero-G's Nostalgia ...

If you want a legit collection of Fairlight sounds for Kontakt and other samplers, Zero-G are doing the Nostalgia samples (which includes the Fairlight stuff and a bunch of other stuff, authored by our very own Hollowsun)




Fired up Zero G Nostalgia for the first time in half a decade. ( I wrote a review on SoS Forum around 2007 which I can't seem to locate).

Fairlight IIx : 77 samples including ARR1.
Mellotron samples : 15 including Phaedra, Watcher.
Taurus MK1: 15 samples.
Linn LM-1, Lindrum, LIN 9000



Instruments & Synths

ARP 2600, ARP String Ensemble, ARP Pro-Soloist, ARP Odyssey, Casio VL-Tone, Casio CZ101, Casio PT-30, Crumar Performer, Chamberlin, Chapman Stick, Clavinet D6, Delichlsia Medlodica , Dubreq Stylophone, Ensoniq SQ80, Ensoniq SQ-R, Elektronika EM-25, Elka Synthex, Eminent 310, Emulator 2, Fairlight CMI IIx, Farfisa organ, Farfisa Soundmaker, Fender Rhodes, Gem DEX20, Gem S2, Hammond B/C3, Hammond M102, Hohner Pianet, Jen bass Pedals, Kawai K5000, Korg Prophecy, Korg Trident, Korg Wavestation, Korg M1, Korg MS20, Korg Polysix, Korg X5DR, Mellotron, MemoryMoog, MiniMoog, Moog Taurus Mk1, Moog Opus, Moog Voyager, MultiVox MX202, NanoBass, Novation SuperNova II, Modulus Monowave, Novation K-Station, Oberheim Matrix 12, Oberheim Matrix 1000, PolyMoog, Prophet 5, PPG Wave 2.2, RMIElectrapiano, S+S synths, System 100, TB303, VP300 Vocoder Plus, Alpha Juno 2, D50, Jupiter 6, MKS50, RS202, SH101, Sci-Fi, Suzuki SX-500, TI Speak & Spell, Wurlitzer EP200, Wurlitzer EP203, Vako Orchestron, Vox Continental, Yamaha CP70, Yamaha DX7, Yamaha CS1x, Yamaha CS5, Yamaha CS80, Yamaha CVS10, Yamaha SY2, Yamaha SY85, Yamaha TX81Z.


Beatboxes/drum synths

Ace Tone 'Rhythm Ace', Akai XE8, Akai XR10, Alesis HR16, Alesis HR16b, Alesis SR16, Boss DR55, Boss DR220, Fricke MsljFB512, Kawai R5/R50E, Korg DDD1, Korg DDM110/DDM220, Linn LM-1, Linn 9000, Mattel Synsonics, MXR 185, Sequential Drum Traks, Sequential Tom, CR78, TR606, TR707, TR727, TR808, TR909, Simmons SDSV, Yamaha RX11, Casio RZ1, Emu Drumulator, Keytek MDP40, Korg 'Mini Pops', Linn Drum Mk2, Oberheim DX, TD7 V-drums, TR505, Sakata DPM48, Sound master SR88, Sound Master Stix, Soundtech Rhythm 12, Pearl DRX-1, Pearl Syncussion, Yamaha DD10



Pretty much plenty to make  numerous Electronic, Hip Hop, Prog.

http://www.zero-g.co.uk/store/nostalgia-p343.php


(6% cpu on i5).
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Re: Kate Bush - Running up that Hill - main synth sound

Postby Grantsos » Tue Aug 02, 2016 1:18 pm

Necropost!

I happened across this thread - apologies if anyone has suggested anything similar, but thought I'd chuck-in something:

If you find from the DX7 libraries... Xylo-Brass from the Sysex file: DX7IIFDVoice64.syx
As usual there are probably a thousand other sources for the sound or slight variationsin different places...

Turn the level of Op1 down...
A little chorus perhaps... Splash a slap echo on....

It's a little brassier on the higher notes, but not that far off.

(I tend to make notes of sounds that I think I recognise from releases).
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Re: Kate Bush - Running up that Hill - main synth sound

Postby desmond » Tue Aug 02, 2016 1:46 pm

Grantsos wrote:I happened across this thread - apologies if anyone has suggested anything similar, but thought I'd chuck-in something:

I'm not sure what you are saying - are you saying that you disagree with he findings of this thread, and instead think the lead sound was actually from a DX7? (original DX7, the mkII didn't come out until a few years after the record).

Or are you saying that you've managed to get a somewhat similar sound with the DX7 in the way you describe?

Posting up an audio example would be useful so we can hear for ourselves what you are referring to.

Of course you can get somewhat similar sounds from any synthesizer - in this case, I'm more interested in the *exact* sounds/techniques used, rather than how to try to mimic them in other ways.
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Re: Kate Bush - Running up that Hill - main synth sound

Postby Grantsos » Tue Aug 02, 2016 4:55 pm

desmond wrote:I'm not sure what you are saying - are you saying that you disagree with he findings of this thread, and instead think the lead sound was actually from a DX7? (original DX7, the mkII didn't come out until a few years after the record).

Or are you saying that you've managed to get a somewhat similar sound with the DX7 in the way you describe?

Posting up an audio example would be useful so we can hear for ourselves what you are referring to.

Of course you can get somewhat similar sounds from any synthesizer - in this case, I'm more interested in the *exact* sounds/techniques used, rather than how to try to mimic them in other ways.

I hurriedly scanned the thread... didn't spot anything like this.

The patch sounds indistinguishable at points and has some of the key character. The sound in the track is processed.
So - who knows?
The mk11 patch was probably duped from something from the DX7.

I haven't got time to record things right now - but:

If you download Dexed, or a sysex capable plugin...
https://asb2m10.github.io/dexed/

Find the sysex file mentioned in here...
http://korgpatches.com/patches/kronos/d ... collection

You can hear it. Maybe if I get time I'll post something.
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Re: Kate Bush - Running up that Hill - main synth sound

Postby desmond » Tue Aug 02, 2016 5:18 pm

I have that sound in FM8, a little tinkly xylophone attack, and a cheesy FM brass sound with a pitch scooped attack.

I think it's likely it's the pitch scooped attack that *reminds* you of the Kate Bush sound, but it's not the actual sound on the record - as was covered in the thread, the attack characteristic is quite distinct and I'd never been able to properly replicate it on a synth, *until* I heard that Fairlight sample (which was a favourite of hers, she used it a lot), and we know that track was largely Fairlight with Linn drums (and real drums) *and* KB never really used the DX7 anyway.

So yes, that DX7 sound has some similar characteristics in the pitch scooped attack and not much high harmonics, but it's not the *actual* sound, if you compare them side by side - it's pretty far away.
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Re: Kate Bush - Running up that Hill - main synth sound

Postby Grantsos » Wed Aug 03, 2016 1:25 pm

desmond wrote:I have that sound in FM8, a little tinkly xylophone attack, and a cheesy FM brass sound with a pitch scooped attack.

I think it's likely it's the pitch scooped attack that *reminds* you of the Kate Bush sound, but it's not the actual sound on the record - as was covered in the thread, the attack characteristic is quite distinct and I'd never been able to properly replicate it on a synth, *until* I heard that Fairlight sample (which was a favourite of hers, she used it a lot), and we know that track was largely Fairlight with Linn drums (and real drums) "

Yes, it reminds me of it - it's not quite there as I stated in the first post. You at least need to tweak the attacks and turn Op1 off or lengthen it's decay so it matches the high harmonic tone I can just hear in the original.
It's not quite hollow enough - a bit too brassy as is.
There is a certain element of the ARR1 character there too.

I'm sure this is FM, at least derived - and the DX can be made to sound identical.
I find dabbling with things like this can lead to innovation rather than solely nailing originals.

desmond wrote:So yes, that DX7 sound has some similar characteristics in the pitch scooped attack and not much high harmonics, but it's not the *actual* sound, if you compare them side by side - it's pretty far away.

desmond wrote:...*and* KB never really used the DX7 anyway."

She did here and there...

AFAIK 06 TUB BELLS is on "Waking The Witch".

It's one of the two synths mentioned as used by her for Sensual World.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=V-1 ... X7&f=false
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Re: Kate Bush - Running up that Hill - main synth sound

Postby desmond » Wed Aug 03, 2016 2:06 pm

Grantsos wrote:I'm sure this is FM, at least derived - and the DX can be made to sound identical.

Have you read the thread, and tracked through the discovery trail? I'm pretty confident we've nailed what it was, and it wasn't a DX7, or an FM anything. The fact that the same sound, through the Quantec (which we also have interview evidence for), also gives the drone that runs through the whole song pretty much seals the deal, imo.

But like I say, if you think you can get closer to what we've done here with a DX7, and you can find some evidence of the DX7 being used on RUTH (eg, interview mentions) then by all means, do some audio demos to show this. Despite being a pretty decent synth programmer, I could never get a synth to give that lumpy characteristic attack of the lead part with a synth (I could approximate it, of course, but that never felt right), and I ultimately realised it's a character of the sample used - a synth can't do that. Anyway, it's all documented in the thread...

Grantsos wrote:
desmond wrote:...*and* KB never really used the DX7 anyway."

She did here and there...
AFAIK 06 TUB BELLS is on "Waking The Witch".
It's one of the two synths mentioned as used by her for Sensual World.

Oh I'm sure the odd DX7 thing turns up here and there (after all they were available in all the studios of the world at that time), but she was never really a big user of the DX7 at that time, when everyone else was using them, is what I meant. Her main synth tools were the CS80, and then when the Fairlight came along she was all about that through the Hounds of Love era and beyond.

For later stuff, like Sensual World, I haven't researched what she was using by then. Thanks for the book link, that was interesting...
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Re: Kate Bush - Running up that Hill - main synth sound

Postby desmond » Wed Aug 03, 2016 2:23 pm

The book says:

"The first song to arrive was ‘Running Up That Hill’, composed in the summer of 1983 in her music room, looking out through the window to the valley below. The track’s most instantly recognisable components – the riff, that searing Fairlight part, and the rumbling electronic drums, programmed by Del – were present from the very beginning, located right at the heart of the song."

"The first time I heard ‘Running Up That Hill’ it wasn’t a demo, it was a working start,” he says. “We carried on working on Kate and Del’s original. Del had programmed the Linn drum part, the basis of which we kept. I know we spent time working on the Fairlight melody/hook but the idea was there and also I think the pad, the wind/train sound, was there plus guide vocals."

"Stuart Elliott came in to add drums, either working ‘with’ the existing Linn drum – on ‘Running Up That Hill’ he overdubbed a snare part, for example – or replacing it but closely following the programmed pattern.

An acute awareness and understanding of rhythm drove the entire record, particularly the first side. “It was obvious to me that Kate had finally found a groove,” says Hardiman. “On ‘Running’ we worked a lot on the Fairlight part which, incredibly, reminded me of the synth line in [Seventies disco-funk classic] ‘Atmosphere Strut’ by Cloud One. I [was] very happy to push the groove."
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Re: Kate Bush - Running up that Hill - main synth sound

Postby Grantsos » Wed Aug 03, 2016 3:02 pm

desmond wrote:Have you read the thread, and tracked through the discovery trail?.

No, as I said, I had just scanned...
I saw the thread and just threw in something that might be of interest from the programming side.

desmond wrote: I'm pretty confident we've nailed what it was, and it wasn't a DX7, or an FM anything.

What makes you sure that the Fairlight's FM engine wasn't used?
Or as I asked, that the source of the sample wasn't FM?
Or a combination?

desmond wrote:The fact that the same sound, through the Quantec (which we also have interview evidence for), also gives the drone that runs through the whole song pretty much seals the deal, imo.

Yes, freeze through the QRS. Great fun.

desmond wrote: But like I say, if you think you can get closer to what we've done here with a DX7,

I'm sure it could be done, as I can hear certain artefacts which I think would be very hard on other devices. (Ie. That one extreme high harmonic whine following the swoop).

But that isn't really my intent. As I say, understanding programming is my main concern. Nailing sounds as exercises are educational for me, I'm interested in getting certain characters to subsequently adapt. FM can be a real bitch too.
A complete breakthrough can be one increment or a million away.

I will have a look at the thread at some point. If I get some time I'll have a closer look at the sound.

desmond wrote: and you can find some evidence of the DX7 being used on RUTH (eg, interview mentions) then by all means, do some audio demos to show this. Despite being a pretty decent synth programmer, I could never get a synth to give that lumpy characteristic attack of the lead part with a synth (I could approximate it, of course, but that never felt right), and I ultimately realised it's a character of the sample used - a synth can't do that. Anyway, it's all documented in the thread...

Sure, samples "lock in" the harmonic content played at specific velocities and then pitch changing them brings out different characteristics compared to the more "reactive" synth...
Squashing and stretching the envelopes etc.
Also as the sinus waves are running at different phases, if not gate sync'd.
The other old trick was to sample with (subtle) verb, and that can create all sorts of additional components that are hard to decipher -esp on attacks.

desmond wrote: Thanks for the book link, that was interesting...

NP, glad to share.
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Re: Kate Bush - Running up that Hill - main synth sound

Postby desmond » Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:05 pm

Grantsos wrote:What makes you sure that the Fairlight's FM engine wasn't used?
Or as I asked, that the source of the sample wasn't FM?
Or a combination?

The Fairlight doesn't have an FM engine. I think you're thinking of the Synclavier. The Fairlight did additive synthesis, and sampling...

And the factory Fairlight library sound fits exactly, and also the tail for the frozen pad, which is again quite an iconic sound. And it was a factory patch KB used a *lot* in other tracks too, a favourite of hers for sure.

I can't *prove* it wasn't an FM sound. However, I've offered plenty of evidence to show what I think it was, and this seems to be backed up by all documentary evidence I've seen so far.

I haven't seen anything about FM, the DX7, and nothing about that patch makes me think the DX7 can be the source of it - but you seem to be very dogged on the DX7 thing for some reason. And the DX7 patch that triggered your post above bears only a passing resemblance to the part, at least from my ears. Nothing you couldn't get on other synths, really.

Like I say, if this is something you want to pursue as a programming exercise (and I do like these from time to time - a month or so ago I did the whole Go West "We Close Our Eyes" lead part to get a handle on that as well - fun, learned a lot!) - if you get the time, by all means, I'd be interested in how close you can get.
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Re: Kate Bush - Running up that Hill - main synth sound

Postby Grantsos » Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:16 am

desmond wrote:The Fairlight doesn't have an FM engine. I think you're thinking of the Synclavier. The Fairlight did additive synthesis, and sampling...

Damn. Yes you're right... The haze of time.

Interestingly, the algo used by the FM sound is pretty much an additive one as there's almost no modulation and it's on only one Op.

desmond wrote: if you get the time, by all means, I'd be interested in how close you can get.

Yes, maybe!
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RE: Kate Bush - Running up that Hill - main synth sound

Postby Thoracius » Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:27 pm

I gave it a shot recreating this sound on my microKORG XL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2c97a76NEI" target="phpbbpopup

I feel like I got pretty close, considering most of the character of the original comes from the weird pitch-shifting artifacts of the digital sample, which is hard to emulate with subtractive synthesis.
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Re: Kate Bush - Running up that Hill - main synth sound

Postby desmond » Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:22 pm

Not bad, if it’s just subtractive synthesis being used... :thumbup:
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Re: Kate Bush - Running up that Hill - main synth sound

Postby Scramble » Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:43 pm

If I was playing in a Kate Bush cover band I'd be pretty happy with that.
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Re: Kate Bush - Running up that Hill - main synth sound

Postby ken long » Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:38 am

So glad to see this epic thread revived! :angel:
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Re: Kate Bush - Running up that Hill - main synth sound

Postby desmond » Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:38 pm

There's a new blog post on the sounds of Running Up That Hill, which seems to come to the same conclusions as we came to in this thread:

https://reverbmachine.com/blog/kate-bush-synth-sounds
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