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Naughty Yamaha - secret acoustic piano on Reface CP!

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Re: Naughty Yamaha - secret acoustic piano on Reface CP!

Postby The Elf » Wed May 10, 2017 9:09 am

I recall Yamaha categorically stating (and it's in the manual) that the humble DJX keyboard's controls could not transmit MIDI controller messages like its more expensive stablemates, yet, through some design/implementation 'accident', it actually could.

I can't help feeling that some of these 'accidents' are carefully engineered - and I'll bet the Reface is enjoying increased sales figures at this moment...
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Re: Naughty Yamaha - secret acoustic piano on Reface CP!

Postby James Perrett » Wed May 10, 2017 9:54 am

I suspect that it is cheaper to design a single fully featured platform and then simply disable features for the cheaper models. If they are using custom chips it is far cheaper to build 100,000 chips with everything included than 1000 simpler chips. I wouldn't be surprised to find that there are a whole host of additional sounds in there if you know how to find them.
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Re: Naughty Yamaha - secret acoustic piano on Reface CP!

Postby Martin Walker » Wed May 10, 2017 5:32 pm

James Perrett wrote:I wouldn't be surprised to find that there are a whole host of additional sounds in there if you know how to find them.

Just as long as they are fully-formed sounds!

I remember many years ago that certain Korg M1 software editors provided a random function that was just that - it injected random numbers into every one of the bytes allocated to a preset, even though some bytes needed to remain within certain parameter limits. The result was some totally out of control sounds that effectively crashed the operating system and made weird noises and sequences of stray notes :beamup:

One commercial library was even released with a few such sounds within it - Valhala International Gold Series B-101 Soundbank - with patch names 92. M1 ALIVE!1 and 93. M1 ALIVE!2

Sadly, although this bank still makes weird noises on the M1 hardware, the excellent virtual M1 software ignores the non-standard parameter values ;)


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Re: Naughty Yamaha - secret acoustic piano on Reface CP!

Postby Rich Hanson » Thu May 11, 2017 9:16 am

Cue the people therefore complaining that the software isn't a true emulation in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1...

:bouncy:
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Re: Naughty Yamaha - secret acoustic piano on Reface CP!

Postby pshealy » Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:05 pm

This may be a silly question, but has anyone attempted sending program changes via midi in to the cp when it's in the piano mode? It sounds remarkably like the bright piano from my old mm6, def an awm voice(couldn't hear any keyoff, so I don't think it is scm). I would expect that if it is the same chipset from the mm series it would def be lower cost, and there may be additional sounds that could be accessed using those program change numbers.
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Re: Naughty Yamaha - secret acoustic piano on Reface CP!

Postby ef37a » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:10 pm

James Perrett wrote:I suspect that it is cheaper to design a single fully featured platform and then simply disable features for the cheaper models. If they are using custom chips it is far cheaper to build 100,000 chips with everything included than 1000 simpler chips. I wouldn't be surprised to find that there are a whole host of additional sounds in there if you know how to find them.

James, this used to happen with VHS video recorders (remember those?) All the bells and whistles were on the PCBs but only 'turned' on as you moved up the price range.

My best mate had an Svideo machine and worked out as well how to turn a bog standard BASF cassette into an Svid tape. You carefully drill an about 3mm hole in a specific place.

AFAWCT they worked just as well as the proper, pricier tapes!

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Re: Naughty Yamaha - secret acoustic piano on Reface CP!

Postby ef37a » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:14 pm

ef37a wrote:
James Perrett wrote:I suspect that it is cheaper to design a single fully featured platform and then simply disable features for the cheaper models. If they are using custom chips it is far cheaper to build 100,000 chips with everything included than 1000 simpler chips. I wouldn't be surprised to find that there are a whole host of additional sounds in there if you know how to find them.

James, this used to happen with VHS video recorders (remember those?) All the bells and whistles were on the PCBs but only 'turned' on as you moved up the price range.

My best mate had an Svideo machine and worked out as well how to turn a bog standard BASF cassette into an Svid tape. You carefully drill an about 3mm hole in a specific place.

AFAWCT they worked just as well as the proper, pricier tapes!

Oh! And when eproms arrived 'they' would leave pins undefined and when we asked why they said it was because the chips are in tellies and ICBMs!

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Re: Naughty Yamaha - secret acoustic piano on Reface CP!

Postby Agharta » Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:55 am

James Perrett wrote:I suspect that it is cheaper to design a single fully featured platform and then simply disable features for the cheaper models. If they are using custom chips it is far cheaper to build 100,000 chips with everything included than 1000 simpler chips. I wouldn't be surprised to find that there are a whole host of additional sounds in there if you know how to find them.

That's true with CPUs with the fastest mainstream Intel i7 being the same chip as the slowest i5. They do bin them depending on characteristics as well so the best fully functioning chips will become an i7.
The i3 series are based on a different chip which are also used for Pentiums.
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Re: Naughty Yamaha - secret acoustic piano on Reface CP!

Postby N i g e l » Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:27 pm

For advanced solderers [and desolderers ! ] only


Ive got fed up with balancing the rotary switch 1/2 way between two settings so I decided to do somthing about it..

This guys excellent video shows one way to do it...



and also shows the rotary switch and PCB.

I didnt fancy cutting a hole in my Reface CP so I decided to change the 6way rotary switch for a the 7way version in the same series [compatible pinout].

The switch in question is available from electro suppliers eg

RS components,
RS Stock No. 123-9617 Mfr. Part No. SRBV170701 Brand Alps Electric
Alps Electric, 7 Position SP7T Rotary Switch, 300 mA, Pc Pin

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/rotary-switches/1239617/

The datasheet is on that page too

[note there are 2 different 7 way switches. The one above has a shorter shaft]

The switch is a £5 but the real cost is in the labour..
Take off front panel knobs.
Undo a million screws on the back of the reface to open it up.
Undo 1/2 a million screws to remove the front panel PCB from the front panel.
With skill and patience, desolder the original 6 way switch [10 pins + 2 stabilising lugs], cut the legs off first if you prefer.
Solder in new 7way switch & test it.

Assembly is the reverse of dissassembly

My Reface CP now looks the same as before but the switch selector operates thus -

RdI
RdII
Wr
Clc
Toy
Cp
Cp

off course there is no connection to that last 7th position "Cp", so when powered off/on that position will give the hidden accoustic piano voice.

Most Reface CPs only go up to 6, mine goes up to 7 ! Its all a bit Spinal Tap.....

Dont try this at home unless you have the tolls and experience.










[it was so much easier when all rotary switches were 12 way but with a moveable mechanical stop pin]
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Re: Naughty Yamaha - secret acoustic piano on Reface CP!

Postby guidos656 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:25 pm

N i g e l wrote:For advanced solderers [and desolderers ! ] only


Ive got fed up with balancing the rotary switch 1/2 way between two settings so I decided to do somthing about it..

This guys excellent video shows one way to do it...

Hi Nigel,

I am a new Reface CP owner - and, although I have zero soldering experience, I am fairly good with fiddly things.

From watching the video you posted, can I ask, if I were just to snip the pin that connects to the Toy piano, would that then simply allow me to select 'Toy' when I power up and give me the acoustic piano instead? I feel like this could be a way someone simple like me could get easier access.

Image

Many thanks,

Guido
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Re: Naughty Yamaha - secret acoustic piano on Reface CP!

Postby Dr Huge Longjohns » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:00 pm

I suspect that it is cheaper to design a single fully featured platform and then simply disable features for the cheaper models

I was chatting to a car dealer recently and he said they are starting to do this with cars too. Build all the extra functionality in and switch it off for the cheaper models.
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Re: Naughty Yamaha - secret acoustic piano on Reface CP!

Postby The Elf » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:27 pm

Dr Huge Longjohns wrote:
I suspect that it is cheaper to design a single fully featured platform and then simply disable features for the cheaper models

I was chatting to a car dealer recently and he said they are starting to do this with cars too. Build all the extra functionality in and switch it off for the cheaper models.
I'm drawn back to the Yamaha DJX I mentioned recently. The MIDI control features were reputedly supposed to be disabled in favour of more expensive models that used the same underlying architecture, but someone forgot! The manual states that MIDI output from the controls doesn't work, but it does - Mk1 only.

I can see the economic sense of this approach, though I do feel a finger-wag coming on.
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Re: Naughty Yamaha - secret acoustic piano on Reface CP!

Postby ef37a » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:35 pm

Dr Huge Longjohns wrote:
I suspect that it is cheaper to design a single fully featured platform and then simply disable features for the cheaper models

I was chatting to a car dealer recently and he said they are starting to do this with cars too. Build all the extra functionality in and switch it off for the cheaper models.

This was standard practice with VHS VCRs. Most of them had all the bells and whistles and were maybe missing a set of RCA sockets? You just needed the service manual codes and maybe an RC overlay and Bob's yer whatsit.

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Re: Naughty Yamaha - secret acoustic piano on Reface CP!

Postby Arpangel » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:20 am

Yes, I found it, it’s a piano..... :yawn:

Reminds me of what he says at 2.35...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNNFLHV6j1I

I also agree about what he says about synthesisers being works of art in themselves, which is why I get so angry when people like Behringer cut the prettiest bits off an ARP 2600.
Like getting a Stanley knife out and cropping a Monet to make it fit on your living room wall.
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Re: Naughty Yamaha - secret acoustic piano on Reface CP!

Postby DGL. » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:53 am

Dr Huge Longjohns wrote:
I suspect that it is cheaper to design a single fully featured platform and then simply disable features for the cheaper models

I was chatting to a car dealer recently and he said they are starting to do this with cars too. Build all the extra functionality in and switch it off for the cheaper models.

Test equipment manufacturers do the same, that's what made one of the Rigol scope models popular, hacking it was trivial so you could buy the cheapest model and hack it.
One thing Dave Jones (EEVBlog) does when he gets certain test equipment in for review is to see how they have implemented the upgradability and see how it can be hacked if it's all in software.
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