You are here

the latest Behringer-gate

For fans of synths, pianos or keyboard instruments of any sort.

Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby N i g e l » Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:41 pm

Martin Walker wrote:And if anyone else is still searching for Robin Whittle's viewpoint, it's here:
http://www.firstpr.com.au/rwi/dfish/beh ... uthorised/" target="phpbbpopup
Martin

Thanks Martin, indeed an interesting read.
Im afraid the guy pulled all the wrong strings for me, so Im still Behringer biased.

I think I was more saddened for the Jasper [wasp clone] designer when the Berhinger Wasp came out with the additional middle row of knobs, just like the Jasper. Berhringer really did their research !

[ The Jasper was a kit synth engineered by a bloke on muffwiggler: when he got enough interest, he would get another batch of PCBs made, so very low volume ]

nathanscribe wrote:Wasn't the Deepmind their first? .
i forget now , theres been so much activity but I think the deepmind is based on the Juno synths ? Juno on steroids maybe, I have not really got into that one.

Behringer have certainly played a major roll in this recent Synth uprising.
N i g e l
Frequent Poster
Posts: 756
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:40 pm
Location: UK

Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby N i g e l » Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:56 pm

Steve A wrote:We often say on these pages that you don't need to register copyright on a song or composition because the copyright automatically belongs to you when you create something. I find it curious that in cases such like these, it is apparently only an expensive patent that can protect you from other people copying your designs.

The Roland drum machines were only copyrighted or patented recently (~30 yrs after 1st release) and that covers the style, including reproduction on T-shirts etc but not electronics!
N i g e l
Frequent Poster
Posts: 756
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:40 pm
Location: UK

Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby DGL. » Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:36 pm

nathanscribe wrote:
N i g e l wrote:Given Behringers [previous] reputation, I doubt many would have jumped at a Behringer synth before they had established the reputation of their synth engineering team.

Wasn't the Deepmind their first?

Technically it was the UB1 created before Behringer as a company existed, unfortunately it got lost at some point.
DGL.
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1068
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:00 am
Location: Portland, Dorset

Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Terrible.dee » Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:09 am

I don't think Behringer has done a good job, sound-wise, on these "Clones" so far.

I think people have been taken in by the look of these units and disregarded the fact that the sound is, not only, unlike the originals, but VERY V.A sounding,

In fact, most of these Behringer knock-offs haven't even really provided much of an "Analog advantage" at all, let alone the benefits of the specific gear they claim to emulate.

The 303 is a good example.....sorry, not like the original, and not even very good, not an "appealing" sound, very bland and soulless. I also though the Berringer D was like that, just "Blahh"

The DM? COME ON! Never trust a synth that fights to hide the "off" button for it's digital FX.

However, I will give them credit (Soundwise) where I think it's due. That single oscillator unit they released? Where they are trying to get you to buy 10 of them so you can have a knock-off Prophet 5 ?

I tried that the other day....and I'll admit it, THAT unit sounds GOOD. Whatever they did there worked, it SOUNDS like voltage.

Will I buy it? HELL NO! There are things in this life more important than toys.

When you feed the evil, evil profits, evil grows, evil absorbs you, YOU are now party to the evil. For this reason, I will not, have not and won't buy ANYTHING this company releases. I don't care if everyone in the world does, it's not my job to keep YOUR hands clean, it's MY JOB to keep MY HANDS clean, and I will do my job regardless....because it's the RIGHT thing to do. Whether I perceive a difference being made or not, isn't the point.

Many want to separate the moral implications of buying this gear from the "new toy" kick they get out of buying it. Sorry, you can't compartmentalize the truth to make yourself more comfortable. It is what it is.

However, I must say, it is a "car" accident" fascinating to watch Beringer execute the "Flood the market with cheap clones, drive the market into the toilet, kill competition, and be the last man standing, then you own the customer" plan in real-time, amazing how people just put all that out of their minds, incredible that THEY KNOW about how the manufacturing is done, who does it and under what conditions, it's the only reason these things are as cheap as they are....they KNOW this is a detriment to those workers, to the economy of their own country and to the world as a whole...

....but for the right toy, people seem to be willing to sell their soul......We live in interesting times.
Terrible.dee
Poster
Posts: 49
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:12 pm

Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Eddy Deegan » Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:22 am

Terrible.dee wrote:I don't think Behringer has done a good job, sound-wise, on these "Clones" so far.
...
I also though the Berringer D was like that, just "Blahh"

You're in a minority there ;)

This guy did a deep dive comparing it to an original Model D:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_65qjJD26ok

Mine is homed alongside the Prophet 6, OB-6, Mother-32 and Matrixbrute in the analogue corner of the studio and I wouldn't be without it. I don't think Behringer have always played nice, but denouncing them as evil is taking it a bit far IMHO.

If you want to boycott them then that's your prerogative of course but I disagree with your overall evaluation, thus I have no moral problem buying from them. I pre-ordered a Pro-One and the Poly D already.

Terrible.dee wrote:YOU are now party to the evil. For this reason, I will not, have not and won't buy ANYTHING this company releases.

With the money you saved you'll be able to buy a new caps lock key when that one wears out :tongue:

The Behringer D also got high praise from The Elf who also has the real thing and knows what he's talking about. I get you dislike Behringer for other reasons but your stated opinion on the sound (or perhaps more accurately, the manner in which you stated it) comes across rather like sour grapes to me.

The Elf wrote:I've been playing with my new Model D and comparing it to my real MiniMoog. As far as I can match the controls on the two synths (which is tougher than you might imagine)...

...this is a MiniMoog.

Not *like* a MiniMoog. Not *similar* to a MiniMoog. It's a MiniMoog.

Actually it improves on the real Mini, with the extra mod LFO, the additional mod/filter options and the CV sockets. So far the tuning is more consistent too, which is no bad thing. To my surprise the controls even feel expensively smooth and silky. All this for 300 quid!

The only significant deviation from my Mini is when using the old feedback loop trick to drive the filter. The Model D sounds nothing like my Mini when doing this. Then again, I use the 'Low' output for my feedback loop, whereas many people use the 'High' output, or the headphone jack... I don't care enough to pursue and rationalise this difference.

The only minus so far: I had to hunt down a sys-ex utility to set the Model D's response characteristics, because I couldn't get it to work with the suggested sys-ex string when I created it in Cubase. With the utility, and using USB instead of the MIDI port, I successfully set the pitch bend range to my preferred 2 semis. If that's the worst trouble I'm going to get for my 300 quid I'll take it.

Stunning.

If it's any consolation I've spent a lot more on gear from other manufacturers than I have from Behringer. It's a big market. There's plenty to go around and there will always be people willing to invest in decent equipment from many sources.
User avatar
Eddy Deegan
Jedi Poster
Posts: 4020
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 12:00 am
Location: Brighton & Hove, UK
Some of my works.
Please consider supporting the SOS Forum Album project.
 

Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Folderol » Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:10 am

That's a pretty conclusive demo.
User avatar
Folderol
Jedi Poster
Posts: 10553
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:00 am
Location: The Mudway Towns, UK
Yes. I am that Linux nut.
Onwards and... err... sideways!

Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby blinddrew » Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:28 am

Steve A wrote:We often say on these pages that you don't need to register copyright on a song or composition because the copyright automatically belongs to you when you create something. I find it curious that in cases such like these, it is apparently only an expensive patent that can protect you from other people copying your designs.
Without getting into too much detail, patents, copyright and design rights are different things with different objectives and different durations. Lots of countries don't have any kind of design right protection at all.
For all of them though, you have to go back to the purpose of intellectual property laws (ignore trademark for now, that's a different beast). Why would a government grant a monopoly to an individual for a new idea or piece of technology? What's the public benefit?
If we go back to the US constitution* we get this:
"[the United States Congress shall have power] To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries."
Now a lot of people get this back to front in terms of purpose and mechanism, but the manner of writing is consistent across large chunks of the constitution. Purpose, followed by mechanism (see also the 2nd amendment for a good example).
Purpose: To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts,
Mechanism: by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries.
The purpose of copyright and patents is not to provide an income for inventors and creators, it's to promote the progress of arts and science. The mechanism is to give these creators a limited-time, government-backed monopoly to exploit those ideas, so that they can create more.
Ideally, if you wanted to really drive innovation and creation, you'd look at all the available research, work out over what period a new product achieves the bulk of its income (the short tail) and set your duration to that point.
After which the public gets its payback from the monopoly by those rights entering the public domain. That's the quid pro quo.

So to going back to the original point, patents aren't granted automatically** because they need to show a non-obvious development or enhancement. They're expensive because when you submit it an examiner needs to look through the existing body of relevant work and determine whether your innovation is a genuinely new and useful improvement. Well, that's what should happen, there are a lot of stupid patents granted that don't do this.
If your new design is just moving around the sequence of functions, or extending their range, or doing any other obvious development of an existing idea - no patent.

Design rights or design patents in the US have a 15 year life, it's similar in the UK. So even if these classic synths were registered at the time (a lot won't have been) they'll now be long out of protection.

And the world gets to move on and enjoy the innovation that is built off the back of them. :)


* partly because it applies to most of the main distribution channels but also it has some of the clearest discussion around the pros and cons and was arguably less influenced by lobbying than the statute of Anne (on which it's based).
** It's worth remembering that for a long time copyright only existed if it was similarly registered, the automatic copyrighting only came about in 1992. If you're in the US and want to take legal action you still need to register your copyright first to have any sensible chance of a successful challenge.
User avatar
blinddrew
Jedi Poster
Posts: 10183
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:00 am
Location: York
Ignore the post count, I have no idea what I'm doing...

Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby ken long » Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:32 pm

Terrible.dee wrote:However, I must say, it is a "car" accident" fascinating to watch Beringer execute the "Flood the market with cheap clones, drive the market into the toilet, kill competition, and be the last man standing, then you own the customer" plan in real-time...

Not to mention the masses of subsequent music flooding the airwaves with these "clones"; Not sure about the other models they have but I recently had a 101 shootout and the MS-1 comes nowhere near the sound of the original but hey, who cares.
User avatar
ken long
Frequent Poster (Level2)
Posts: 3359
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:00 am
Location: Somers Town
I'm All Ears.

Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby N i g e l » Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:37 pm

Its also worth pointing out that several of the original synth companies went bankrupt.
In accepting the wiping of their debts they would have lost the rights to their original designs/technology.

This doesnt mean that [after a time] they cant redevelope the same technology afresh and start again with a slightly different name, Synthcompany, Synthcompany Music, Synthcompany Electronics, Synthcompany Systems.

Which effectively puts them in the same marketplace as Behringer.

Some of these phoenix companies have been from boom to bust several times, which may even give Behringer the moral high ground !
N i g e l
Frequent Poster
Posts: 756
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:40 pm
Location: UK

Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby nathanscribe » Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:30 pm

ken long wrote:Not sure about the other models they have but I recently had a 101 shootout and the MS-1 comes nowhere near the sound of the original but hey, who cares.

Ha! I also had a shootout and didn't find them significantly different. They weren't exactly the same, but I bet no two original 101s are exact either – I know I don't sound like I did in the 80s, certainly every time I get out of a chair :( . I reckon any brand new synth isn't going to sound 100% exactly like its 40-year old relative, but I also reckon Behringer's new gear is close enough for music. Same goes for Korg, I've had the new Odyssey alongside an old one and there was a perceptible difference – only really that the old one sounded like an old Odyssey, and the new one sounded like a new Odyssey.
User avatar
nathanscribe
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1162
Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:00 am
Location: Wakefield, for my sins.
I have no idea what I'm doing.

Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby ken long » Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:19 pm

nathanscribe wrote:
ken long wrote:Not sure about the other models they have but I recently had a 101 shootout and the MS-1 comes nowhere near the sound of the original but hey, who cares.

Ha! I also had a shootout and didn't find them significantly different. They weren't exactly the same, but I bet no two original 101s are exact either – I know I don't sound like I did in the 80s, certainly every time I get out of a chair :( . I reckon any brand new synth isn't going to sound 100% exactly like its 40-year old relative, but I also reckon Behringer's new gear is close enough for music. Same goes for Korg, I've had the new Odyssey alongside an old one and there was a perceptible difference – only really that the old one sounded like an old Odyssey, and the new one sounded like a new Odyssey.

Just had my 101 completely refurbed so, no, it's not that. And although you're right when you say no 101s sound exactly the same, they all sound closer to each other than the different MS-1.

It's like the previous poster said "very VA".

Glad you like it tho! That's the market.
User avatar
ken long
Frequent Poster (Level2)
Posts: 3359
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:00 am
Location: Somers Town
I'm All Ears.

Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Folderol » Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:11 pm

On a slightly different tack. I can never understand people who spend all their time trying to get one synth sounding like something completely different.
User avatar
Folderol
Jedi Poster
Posts: 10553
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:00 am
Location: The Mudway Towns, UK
Yes. I am that Linux nut.
Onwards and... err... sideways!

Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby The Elf » Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:24 pm

Terrible.dee wrote:I don't think Behringer has done a good job, sound-wise, on these "Clones" so far.

I think people have been taken in by the look of these units and disregarded the fact that the sound is, not only, unlike the originals, but VERY V.A sounding,
Define 'V.A. sounding'. These are true analogues, so I'm genuinely curious.
User avatar
The Elf
Jedi Poster
Posts: 14273
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Sheffield, UK
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Folderol » Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:20 pm

Just had another look at that vid, and I was actually able to see a tiny difference on the waveform traces (couldn't hear it though). On the original there is a tiny bit of a 'flutter' on the bottom edges of the sawtooth and pulse waveforms, suggesting a possible instability. It's not there on the Berry. Having said that, I think the only way you'd ever hear it would be to run at an extremely low pitch and filter out almost everything except the highest frequency components
:headbang:

P.S. That's of course assuming it's not just the display that creating it :tongue:
User avatar
Folderol
Jedi Poster
Posts: 10553
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:00 am
Location: The Mudway Towns, UK
Yes. I am that Linux nut.
Onwards and... err... sideways!

Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Eddy Deegan » Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:01 am

The Elf wrote:
Terrible.dee wrote:I don't think Behringer has done a good job, sound-wise, on these "Clones" so far.

I think people have been taken in by the look of these units and disregarded the fact that the sound is, not only, unlike the originals, but VERY V.A sounding,
Define 'V.A. sounding'. These are true analogues, so I'm genuinely curious.

Me too (curious, that is).

I don't think either the Berry D or Pro-One "sound VA" in any meaningful sense. Not that VA is an insult; VA can sound extremely good. The Kingkorg, Radias and Kronos all do VA and produce some superb analogue-like timbres, to the point where I would challenge anyone to tell the difference on many of those sounds in a blind listening test against the Prophet 6, OB-6 etc.

I would also be quite prepared to create such a test and provide it both on stream and a 24-bit downloadable WAV file (including filter sweeps on each patch) if anyone sceptical wants to take me up on that. I'd even throw in a patch from an early 90s pure digital ROMpler and a VA plugin or two.

Actually, I'm going to do it anyway, as this comes up a lot and it's a discussion I'm kind of fed up with these days. Plus it should be a bit of fun!

I'll post something early next week in another thread. It'll be interesting to see what people make of it. I'm off to bed shortly as I'm heading West on a road-trip for the weekend to visit a couple of forum members in that direction who I'd like to see more often than we can make it happen :D
User avatar
Eddy Deegan
Jedi Poster
Posts: 4020
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 12:00 am
Location: Brighton & Hove, UK
Some of my works.
Please consider supporting the SOS Forum Album project.
 

PreviousNext