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the latest Behringer-gate

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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby n o i s e f l e ur » Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:50 am

Eddy Deegan wrote:
Me too (curious, that is).

I don't think either the Berry D or Pro-One "sound VA" in any meaningful sense. Not that VA is an insult; VA can sound extremely good. The Kingkorg, Radias and Kronos all do VA and produce some superb analogue-like timbres, to the point where I would challenge anyone to tell the difference on many of those sounds in a blind listening test against the Prophet 6, OB-6 etc.

I would also be quite prepared to create such a test and provide it both on stream and a 24-bit downloadable WAV file (including filter sweeps on each patch) if anyone sceptical wants to take me up on that. I'd even throw in a patch from an early 90s pure digital ROMpler and a VA plugin or two.

Actually, I'm going to do it anyway, as this comes up a lot and it's a discussion I'm kind of fed up with these days. Plus it should be a bit of fun!

I'll post something early next week in another thread. It'll be interesting to see what people make of it.

That sounds like it could be a bit of a fun game, or even competition. Rustle up a few sequences, arps or whatever and hear what various Mystery Synths can do with 'em. You could do this as a straight head-to-head analogue vs faux-analogue or open it up further, perhaps separately, to let people showcase a broader range of toys.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Arpangel » Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:00 am

Terrible.dee wrote:I don't think Behringer has done a good job, sound-wise, on these "Clones" so far

I have to completely disagree, as a previous owner of an original Mini, and a Reissue, I compared these with a friends Behringer D, the Berry was disturbingly good, so good in fact we couldn’t notice a difference at all, between most sounds, OK, there was a slight difference in the behaviour of resonance on certain sounds, but even that was negligible, and you wouldn’t have noticed if it wasn’t pointed out.
More importantly, the essential ingredients of the Mini were all there, that lovely thick smokey sound, the filter, the overloaded mixer, if it was the sound of a Mini I wanted above looks, and resale value, I'd have absolutely no excuse not to buy the Berry.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Zukan » Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:47 pm

From what The Elf, Dave et al have said they are pretty close, and that's good enough for me.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby ken long » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:17 am

Zukan wrote:From what The Elf, Dave et al have said they are pretty close, and that's good enough for me.

There's probably a correlation between thinking they are the same and RRP.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Dave B » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:38 am

erm ... it is worth pointing out that both The Elf and I are not exactly known for our frugal, penny pinching ways.... especially when it comes to synths... :headbang:
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby The Elf » Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:45 pm

Sssshhhhhhhhh!!! :oops: :lol:
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Terrible.dee » Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:42 pm

The Elf wrote:
Terrible.dee wrote:I don't think Behringer has done a good job, sound-wise, on these "Clones" so far.

I think people have been taken in by the look of these units and disregarded the fact that the sound is, not only, unlike the originals, but VERY V.A sounding,
Define 'V.A. sounding'. These are true analogues, so I'm genuinely curious.

Certainly,

There is a sound quality that can only be achieved via a volage travelling through circuits, to an amp that translates that voltage into a frequency and a number of additional harmonics.

At every stage that volage is subject to infinite harmonic variance, this is based on a number of things not the least of which is the environment you are in, analogue has infinite resolution, infinite harmonic variance and is so "Alive" it will actually interact with where you physically are.

Another factor is the saturation and "colour" a voltage can pick up in the various gain stages of its circuit path. Depending on how hard you push that voltage at any one point in its stages, you are going to hear the rich harmonic content who's unpredictable variance, science has proven, is "Ear Crack" to the human auditory system.

When you try to approximate these qualities when an algorithm is programmed to try and do some of what is done naturally, you are then going to hear a different kind of sound.

In the synthesizer world, the approximation is called V.A, and when someone tries to make an analogue synth without actually making an analogue synth. The sound of that approximation is something that I personally find to be bad. So do most others.

So when I say something sounds V.A, I am saying I cannot hear the unmistakable quality of voltage moving through a circuit.

I am NOT saying that these clones are V.A in disguise. What I am saying, is that their sound reminds me of V.A.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:44 pm

All you had to type was the last sentence... :lol:
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby The Elf » Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:00 pm

Terrible.dee wrote:There is a sound quality that can only be achieved via a volage travelling through circuits...
So when I say something sounds V.A, I am saying I cannot hear the unmistakable quality of voltage moving through a circuit.
And yet these Behringer devices *do* have Voltage moving through circuits, so it's not 'unmistakable'?

Terrible.dee wrote:I am NOT saying that these clones are V.A in disguise. What I am saying, is that their sound reminds me of V.A.
Fair enough. I have Behringer, Moog and ARP originals and clones side by side here. If someone was to set a patch on one or the other I wouldn't have a clue which one I was listening to.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby desmond » Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:11 pm

Terrible.dee wrote:The sound of that approximation is something that I personally find to be bad. So do most others.

So when I say something sounds V.A, I am saying I cannot hear the unmistakable quality of voltage moving through a circuit.

There's definitely something happening that's different between experiences. I don't think it's what you think it is, though...

What I always wanted someone to do is along the lines of the following:

- Take two analog synths where there is a really good software emulation of them (in my previous example, I used SCI Pro Ones and u-he's Repro 1)
- Hollow one out, and place inside it the guts of a computer & audio interface, running the software emulation, mapped 1:1 with the synth's controls, audio outputs etc.
- The idea being that the two synths, one analog, one a digital emulation, should vibrate, smell, weigh, heat up and be interacted with in exactly the same way.

If someone did that, I'm fairly sure that the odds of people guessing which was "real" and which "emulated" would not be statistically/meaningfully different to blind 50/50 chance.

There are (many) differences in the *experience* of using real analog gear over emulations, and experiences colour our perceptions greatly. I'm not not convinced the difference is in the *sound*, as opposed to other factors.

(When the emulation is done well - there are of course emulations which aren't that good and thee are much easier to tell apart).
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby dbfs » Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:16 pm

Hi,

In the training center where I work, we bought a Dave Smith Instruments Prophet REV2-16 and a Behringer Deep Mind 12D. Both rack versions.

The students keep saying things like the Prophet is "Quality", "Deep", "Beautiful", "Lush", they genuinely smile when they use it.

Nobody seems very interested in working with the Deepmind even when the Prophet is being used by someone else. It is really weird as these guys have not used real analog synths before. And yes, I did show them how to operate both synths.

Anyway to cut a long story short, I have decided not to buy any more Behringer synths and will save the money to buy more expensive units that will hopefully get more use. They might also last longer which would be an added bonus.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby The Elf » Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:50 pm

dbfs wrote:Nobody seems very interested in working with the Deepmind even when the Prophet is being used by someone else. It is really weird as these guys have not used real analog synths before. And yes, I did show them how to operate both synths.
I don't find this very surprising. The DeepMind definitely has that 'cheap' Juno-esque sound quality and it does not appeal to me. I had one for a while - I moved it on when I realised it would always sound like a Juno. In the company of a Prophet it wouldn't stand a chance. This said, the DM isn't a bad synth - just not an analogue monster in the way of a Prophet or Oberheim.

But don't tar all of the Behringer synths with the DeepMind's brush; they are all VERY different animals - and so far very reliable, IME.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby The Elf » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:03 pm

desmond wrote:What I always wanted someone to do is along the lines of the following:
...
When my JP-8 was playing up a few years ago I drafted in a JP-8080 to tide me over. I defy anyone to point out which tracks featured one or the other - and TBH I don't even know myself!
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby BigRedX » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:29 pm

I've often come across the "listening with the eyes" phenomenon.

None more so then when I was playing in a "dance rock" band in the late 90s. The backbone of our sound was sequenced synthesisers, drum machine and sampled drum loops. We giggled in various different line-ups both with and without a drummer. In fact we had two different drummers, one with a set of Roland pads with an Alesis "brain" converting them to MIDI, and another with what looked like a conventional drum kit, but with heavily damped shells and skins fitted with bugs and a Yamaha module to do the trigger to MIDI conversion.

In all three cases the drum sounds were exactly the same being samples on an Akai S2000. The only difference was that in one case the sequencer was triggering them and in the other two cases one of the drummers was triggering them. Almost without exception our audience thought that the drummer with damped kit triggering the samples sounded better.

It even went as far as a well-known local producer (who we had employed to do us a better mix) being surprised to find that all the drums on our recording with the exception of the hihats were MIDI triggered samples, something he hadn't spotted until he got the Logic sessions for the songs.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby CS70 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:45 pm

BigRedX wrote:I've often come across the "listening with the eyes" phenomenon.


There's no doubt, and not just with listening.. the same food with different packaging is always reported to taste differently, with the most-expensive package leading to the best taste :)
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