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Behringer Model D

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Re: Behringer Model D

Postby The Elf » Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:52 pm

Legend is a take-out pizza.

Model D is a good steak at your local gastro-pub.

The MiniMoog is breakfast at Tiffany's.

When you're in a hurry to eat you don't book a flight to New York... :D
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Re: Behringer Model D

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:37 am

:clap: :lol:
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Re: Behringer Model D

Postby Guest » Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:37 pm

All said and done The Legend VA sounds awesome. Checkout youtube for a 'The Legend vs Hardware synthesizer' and 'Vintage Minimoog Model D vs. The Legend VST Emulation' shootouts here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIPu2Su-V9Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NBJuQVtPwA

Or download the 30 day demo here:

http://www.synapse-audio.com/thelegend.html

Behringer better get a move on if its going to cash in on the present right brained analog revival or it might end up the way of Alesis. CPU's and modelling skills aren't getting any less powerful or VA's less convenient, also If I want a Behringer Model D I have to wait till God knows when to get it. With all there demos on youtube and teasers on Facebook yet none in the shops they might just be annoying a lot of there potential customers into looking at the alternatives which might make buyers realise something they never knew before: VA's are now at least as good if not better than the originals!
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Re: Behringer Model D

Postby The Elf » Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:15 am

envamt wrote:which might make buyers realise something they never knew before: VA's are now at least as good if not better than the originals!
I think you're over-egging this pudding.

I am open to making sounds with anything. I use a lot of virtual instruments, and I use a lot of hardware, old and new. Much as I might choose a VI for its specific abilities, or simply for convenience, I'm not blind to the fact that much hardware has a special quality that VIs still cannot recreate, not least of which is the physical interaction.

And I have no problem with that.

VAs are at their very best when they stop trying to emulate old technology and do what they're good at. VIs do not need to try to equal or better hardware - they simply need to take us on other journeys.

All IMO, of course.
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Re: Behringer Model D

Postby Guest » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:37 pm

With respect to developers of VA's and to where I am coming from:
As long as cpu's get more powerful VA emulations will get better. Developers continually target the old familiar Moogs, Prophets and Rolands etc. to prove the point to people like you and me that total emulation is possible and doable. They simply will not rest till they nail them... then they can say "behold what I have done, I've made a better world for every one, nobody laughs nobody cries.. " showing my age there.

The thought of buying four Behringer Model D's to stack up for four note polymoog goodness had more than crossed my mind but after trying out Synapse Audios The Legend VA (which can be set to four note poly mode) I was put in a dilemma. Sure I love my poly stack of five Waldorf Pulses (Dr Who has only two pulses) and MKS-80, JX-10 and Juno-6 trio of Rolands, and yes the mighty Andromeda with its pride of place need not worry nor should the Waldorf Wave or even the Matrix-1000 or DSI-Tetra for performing real analog polyphonic duties, they are all analog after all. But now theres these new virtual kids on the block threatening everything with there sound quality, reliability, affordability and sheer convenience making my analogs feel more like warm expensive security blankets. How I normally perceive analog synthesis is changing now more than ever especially since adding The Legend and uh-e's Diva to the mix, and you know they stand just as tall and proud and are no less and yes, in lots of ways even better! than there semi distinguished company of hardware friends.

Important to say that to use the latest and greatest VA's you'll need a fast modern PC/Mac (they are hungry beasties), low latency quality audio, good speakers and a decent controller keyboard for mapping knobs etc., I use a Virus kb which all adds to the illusion of playing a real synth. Oh, and yes my right brain is still nagging me "go get yer self a few of these nice warm analog knobie Behringer thingies to cuddle in to".
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Re: Behringer Model D

Postby Chevytraveller » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:19 am

The Elf wrote:
envamt wrote:which might make buyers realise something they never knew before: VA's are now at least as good if not better than the originals!
I think you're over-egging this pudding.

I am open to making sounds with anything. I use a lot of virtual instruments, and I use a lot of hardware, old and new. Much as I might choose a VI for its specific abilities, or simply for convenience, I'm not blind to the fact that much hardware has a special quality that VIs still cannot recreate, not least of which is the physical interaction.

And I have no problem with that.

VAs are at their very best when they stop trying to emulate old technology and do what they're good at. VIs do not need to try to equal or better hardware - they simply need to take us on other journeys.


All IMO, of course.


Elf is bang on here.. the hardware presents a different journey and while VAs are getting better and offer convenience and recall-ability they just don't offer they same "journey experience" or disciplines that the hardware offers..

Yeah I love Diva and use it all the time but I have much more fun with My AJH modules..


:bouncy:
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Re: Behringer Model D

Postby Guest » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:22 pm

Chevytraveller wrote:
The Elf wrote:
envamt wrote:which might make buyers realise something they never knew before: VA's are now at least as good if not better than the originals!
I think you're over-egging this pudding.

I am open to making sounds with anything. I use a lot of virtual instruments, and I use a lot of hardware, old and new. Much as I might choose a VI for its specific abilities, or simply for convenience, I'm not blind to the fact that much hardware has a special quality that VIs still cannot recreate, not least of which is the physical interaction.

And I have no problem with that.

VAs are at their very best when they stop trying to emulate old technology and do what they're good at. VIs do not need to try to equal or better hardware - they simply need to take us on other journeys.


All IMO, of course.


Elf is bang on here.. the hardware presents a different journey and while VAs are getting better and offer convenience and recall-ability they just don't offer they same "journey experience" or disciplines that the hardware offers..

Yeah I love Diva and use it all the time but I have much more fun with My AJH modules..


:bouncy:

Different strokes and each to there own. With a good keyboard controller, eyes shut twiddling the filter knob with Repro-5 on the screen feels the same to me as on my Amdromeda till I open my eyes but even then the Virus kb I use as a controller keeps the illusion going... this is a Prophet-5! Will people still go out with a barrow full of tenners and buy the real thing? If they do its not for the music its for something else. I personally think analog is in its last dying throws and soon people will say 'what's analog? oh yea, that's what granddad used to use, my plugins do all that now.. I do have a wee synth I got but never use it'.
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Re: Behringer Model D

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:59 pm

envamt wrote:I personally think analog is in its last dying throws and soon people will say 'what's analog? oh yea, that's what granddad used to use, my plugins do all that now.. I do have a wee synth I got but never use it'.

Yeah... they said that about vinyl records, and recording tape, and analogue consoles too... but people keep on rediscovering them and keeping these things alive -- and for myriad reasons. The same is and will continue to be true of analogue synths.

H
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Re: Behringer Model D

Postby Dave B » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:23 pm

envamt wrote: I personally think analog is in its last dying throws and soon people will say 'what's analog? oh yea, that's what granddad used to use, my plugins do all that now.. I do have a wee synth I got but never use it'.

I'll agree with most of what's been said here, but the above is ignoring the last couple of years of synth production : analogue is still very much alive and better than ever!

Between some of the great polys that have come out (I have both the Prophet6 and the OB6 and both are absolutely wonderful), the resurgence of cheap monos and the incredible Eurorack community, we have never had so much great kit that a) works, b) works reliably and c) sounds fantastic.

Maybe I'm just showing my age as well, but I seem to remember everyone predicting the death of analogue 30 years ago. Coz digital is great, innit?

;)
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Re: Behringer Model D

Postby Guest » Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:22 am

Dave B wrote:Between some of the great polys that have come out (I have both the Prophet6 and the OB6 and both are absolutely wonderful), the resurgence of cheap monos and the incredible Eurorack community, we have never had so much great kit that a) works, b) works reliably and c) sounds fantastic.

Maybe I'm just showing my age as well, but I seem to remember everyone predicting the death of analogue 30 years ago. Coz digital is great, innit?

;)

envamt replyed..

Forgot one thing though, Analog synths cost an arm and a leg! (Behringer exception) Computer VA's are super inexpressive or even free. The differences between them for me now does not justify there price. (I have both the u-he Repro-5 and a Diva and both are absolutely wonderful) All that we say about our analogs can now, at last equally be said about VA's. I would love a Pro-6 and OB-6 and if I did shell out the mega bucks for them it wouldn't just be for 'that elusive sound' or 'feel the knobs yea' it would be for something quite different, that elusive illogical something that's hard to pin down, that artists and advertisers love... The Dream

Behringer are taking a risk and a big illogical one at that, one that Roland wouldn't do. They hope the new rising right-brained culture - where logic and practicalities take a back seat - will embrace the dream of owning a real proper analog synthesizer, and not just any old synth but real dream Moogs and Oberheims and Rolands. This plan will only work if they can deliver on quality at consumer prices and sell everybody the dream. Hence the Behringer Model D at a 10th the price of a real one and the Neutron semi modular and Juno clone or whatever analog synth they have up there sleeves that fulfils one thing - our dream.

The key to this strategy is keep the dream alive, 'Yea computers can do tones of stuff but this is the real deal' they say. The truth now is that Behringer and all the other analog synth manufacturers have nothing left on any practical or logical level that can compete with digital. Roland held out because they knew what was ahead but they didn't bank on one thing - it doesn't have to be the most cost effective or elegant solution to the same problem that wins or shares the prize. Our crazy illogical compulsive desires as humans still need to be fulfilled and in a world full of digits and logics analog fills that need nicely and it ticks all the right-brain boxes. The 'less is more' box, the 'can you feel it' box, the 'its got a heart' box, the 'indescribable something' box, in fact most of the attributes we associate with music we can apply to analog and the marketers and advertisers know it.

But my point is this and only this. All the above can be replicated digitally and packaged up and sold as a dream to any dreamer that wants it. Nowadays a big reason analog has a growing market is that digital is so darn affordable - even free - that people feel the need to spend there money on something, anything.. 'oh I know, I'll get some real vco's cause they're real and will hold there price and they just feel better and I can trust them'. A time is coming and has already come when people will just not be able to tell the difference either to look at or interact with or listen to and advertisers and marketers will move in and sell us another dream 'Better Than Analog' or as Behringer years ago put it about there first digital mixer 'Danalog'. God is that the time! I don't half go on abit.. sorry for the rant, night night :yawn:
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Re: Behringer Model D

Postby Chevytraveller » Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:58 am

That may well be your belief, but it doesn't seem to be one that's shared with a lot of the manufacturers and synth buying public..
If you like playing exclusively in the virtual world, then that's just great, but over the past few years the hunger for the real and the physical is growing and has never been so strong..

Do yourself a favour and step away from your computer.. go and see some of the amazing shows like Synthfest and Superbooth and you might get a better idea of just how much real and exciting stuff is out there..


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Re: Behringer Model D

Postby blinddrew » Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:46 pm

my take on it is that although the digital realm can now produce near perfect clones of the sounds (and judicious use of controllers can also closely mimic the playing response), we humans are a fickle bunch. We know, intellectually, something to be true, but music is an emotional pastime, so we choose devices and approaches that trigger our emotions. This, in turn, causes our brain to react differently as we ride the relative dopamine and seratonin* waves.
Plus you have the whole 'image' thing to deal with. Like it or not, music and musicians are intricately tied to their image. And if a noted performer uses device X, then devotees will also want to use device X. And they might start with a software clone of it, but they will always hanker for the real thing. That's why there is a market for Rolexes, and fake Rolexes. ;)

So whilst we might theoretically acknowledge that there is no logical reason for a lot of analogue devices to exist in 30 years time, I wouldn't bet against the market still thriving.

* Occasionally we add a bit of cortisol in there when something doesn't work, but this happens irrespective of the domain. :)
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Re: Behringer Model D

Postby garrettendi » Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:14 pm

I use exclusively software synths but that's purely down to how cheap they are (usually free in my case).

I can't comment on how good analogue is having never used any hardware synths, but I really want to buy a DeepMind 12. Unfortunately I can't justify the expense.

I think analogue would surely sound better and more "alive", but purely in my case, with everything I have going on in and out of the studio, I have to use softsynths.

Does anyone fancy buying me a DeepMind 12??? :wave:

EDIT: Turns out that the DeepMind is an analogue/digital hybrid :headbang:
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Re: Behringer Model D

Postby desmond » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:39 pm

garrettendi wrote:I think analogue would surely sound better and more "alive"

There are many differences to analog synths and plugins, but, when done well, *sound* isn't really one of them.

One of the things I would have liked Urs to do when u-he released Repro-1 would be to have two real Pro 1's - one as is, and one with the analog internals replaced with a dedicated computer running Repro, interfaced with the knobs directly etc. Both devices would sound, smell, look and feel the same, both would warm up, and both you would feel the gentle humming/vibrating with the power flowing through it. Pretty sure no one would reliably be able to spot which was digital and which wasn't.. ;) (He wasn't willing to sacrifice a Pro 1 for the task though, which is fair enough!)

As I see it, the main benefits of hardware are a dedicated control surface, and immediacy of use.
The benefits of software are cost, multiple instances, flexibility, patch/project recall and automation.

The *sound*, as I say, when done well (there are plugins that don't sound that great), can be a identical as one real analog hardware synth to another - but the *experience* of making music with hardware vs plugins is quite different, no matter how sophisticated a control scheme you have set up.

But don't go thinking that analog hardware will always sound better than plugins either - there are plenty of real synths that can sound quite disappointing these days.

We've never had it so good. But I still don't understand which is taken so long for someone to build a good dedicated synth controller* (although there's a couple in the works now...)

* Pet hobby horse
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Re: Behringer Model D

Postby garrettendi » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:42 pm

For my synth controls I just use my Casio Celviano AP-250. I then have a full set of 88 keys :thumbup: but I pay the cost associated with no mod wheel :thumbdown:
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