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Behringer Model D

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Re: Behringer Model D

Postby The Elf » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:22 pm

desmond wrote:We've never had it so good. But I still don't understand which is taken so long for someone to build a good dedicated synth controller* (although there's a couple in the works now...)
The best VSTi controller I own is my Roland JP-8080 - works very well indeed, as long as you take the time to do the mappings.
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Re: Behringer Model D

Postby desmond » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:47 pm

The Elf wrote:The best VSTi controller I own is my Roland JP-8080 - works very well indeed, as long as you take the time to do the mappings.

:thumbup:
Funnily enough, that's the exact device that I choose as an example of what I basically want in a synth controller in layout terms (albeit with some control enhancements for flexibility).

Great minds, etc... 8-) :clap:
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Re: Behringer Model D

Postby Guest » Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:59 am

Chevytraveller wrote:That may well be your belief, but it doesn't seem to be one that's shared with a lot of the manufacturers and synth buying public..
If you like playing exclusively in the virtual world, then that's just great, but over the past few years the hunger for the real and the physical is growing and has never been so strong..

Do yourself a favour and step away from your computer.. go and see some of the amazing shows like Synthfest and Superbooth and you might get a better idea of just how much real and exciting stuff is out there..


:bouncy:

Yes its true but my point is that what the manufacturers of analogs are selling now is not sound quality or interfaces or features. They know that they cant compete on any level with digital so they compete with each other. Its like they know the score but two markets are better than one. The market for analogs is becoming more irrational and bizarre as time goes on. Its like there's two identical cars except one does 20mpg and has a few features and costs 100k and the other does 100mpg and is packed with features and costs 5k. Its bonkers, people believe the advertisers and buy the car that does vintage mpg and has classic features! Its gone completely crazy, less is more yet it costs 20 times as much. Is it just me? or is there something mental going on here???
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Re: Behringer Model D

Postby zenguitar » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:28 am

This is all about understanding what a model is and how the model relates to the real world.

The real world is boundless and infinite, but a model (from 1st principles) is finite and has boundaries. We are fortunate to have sufficient computer power to create convincing approximations of hardware analogue synths. But no matter how convincing those software synths might sound, only a fool forgets that they are approximisations.

If it is a model, it can't possibly be real.

Andy :beamup:
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Re: Behringer Model D

Postby The Elf » Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:20 am

Back on topic...

Firmware 1.0.5 has been released that fixes the Model D's pitchbend in release problem, but they have removed (and/or broken - time may tell) the ability to set pitchbend range.
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Re: Behringer Model D

Postby The Elf » Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:17 am

...and the 1.0.5 updater works in Windows 10 - for me, at least.
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Re: Behringer Model D

Postby Guest » Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:06 pm

blinddrew wrote:my take on it is that although the digital realm can now produce near perfect clones of the sounds (and judicious use of controllers can also closely mimic the playing response), we humans are a fickle bunch. We know, intellectually, something to be true, but music is an emotional pastime, so we choose devices and approaches that trigger our emotions. This, in turn, causes our brain to react differently as we ride the relative dopamine and seratonin* waves.
Plus you have the whole 'image' thing to deal with. Like it or not, music and musicians are intricately tied to their image. And if a noted performer uses device X, then devotees will also want to use device X. And they might start with a software clone of it, but they will always hanker for the real thing. That's why there is a market for Rolexes, and fake Rolexes. ;)

So whilst we might theoretically acknowledge that there is no logical reason for a lot of analogue devices to exist in 30 years time, I wouldn't bet against the market still thriving.

* Occasionally we add a bit of cortisol in there when something doesn't work, but this happens irrespective of the domain. :)

Well said, I wish I had the skills to say what you just did.. and say such a lot without rabbiting on for half an hour as I tend to do without quite nailing what I am trying to say. You have it bang on.
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Re: Behringer Model D

Postby Guest » Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:57 pm

zenguitar wrote:This is all about understanding what a model is and how the model relates to the real world.

The real world is boundless and infinite, but a model (from 1st principles) is finite and has boundaries. We are fortunate to have sufficient computer power to create convincing approximations of hardware analogue synths. But no matter how convincing those software synths might sound, only a fool forgets that they are approximisations.

If it is a model, it can't possibly be real.

Andy :beamup:

If that's the case God is a fool for making hands for arms and humans are fools for using tools. An arm is good but an arm and hand is better and a hand grasping a stone gains even more power for certain specific tasks. Neither are approximations because when performing a task its then they become dependant on each and become a whole and we forget everything but perorming the task (till something breaks then we repair/modify and start again). When performing a task it has always been the result that is important and if something comes along and produces the desired result faster, cheaper, easier etc. then we forget the old ways and adopt the new. So it will be with digital over analog, eventually we will forget the old analog ways because digital fits all the right criteria, faster, cheaper, easier, better etc. Only a Luddite hangs on to the old dying ways. When it comes to tools right-brained desire for art and beauty has its place but in all history the left-brained desire for logic and practicalities, cost and usefulness trumps the right every time ... so we make pretty tools that look like old tools but perform better.
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Re: Behringer Model D

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:33 pm

Okay... enough... we get it: you love modern digital synths in all their forms and appreciate their assorted strengths and benefits. That's lovely...

I think you've made your point clearly (while comprehensively disregarding the alternative views expressed by several others) so shall we move on now?

Please?

H
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Re: Behringer Model D

Postby Guest » Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:01 pm

desmond wrote:
garrettendi wrote:I think analogue would surely sound better and more "alive"

There are many differences to analog synths and plugins, but, when done well, *sound* isn't really one of them.

One of the things I would have liked Urs to do when u-he released Repro-1 would be to have two real Pro 1's - one as is, and one with the analog internals replaced with a dedicated computer running Repro, interfaced with the knobs directly etc. Both devices would sound, smell, look and feel the same, both would warm up, and both you would feel the gentle humming/vibrating with the power flowing through it. Pretty sure no one would reliably be able to spot which was digital and which wasn't.. ;) (He wasn't willing to sacrifice a Pro 1 for the task though, which is fair enough!)

As I see it, the main benefits of hardware are a dedicated control surface, and immediacy of use.
The benefits of software are cost, multiple instances, flexibility, patch/project recall and automation.

The *sound*, as I say, when done well (there are plugins that don't sound that great), can be a identical as one real analog hardware synth to another - but the *experience* of making music with hardware vs plugins is quite different, no matter how sophisticated a control scheme you have set up.

But don't go thinking that analog hardware will always sound better than plugins either - there are plenty of real synths that can sound quite disappointing these days.

We've never had it so good. But I still don't understand which is taken so long for someone to build a good dedicated synth controller* (although there's a couple in the works now...)

* Pet hobby horse

I totally agree. There are lots of plugins which don't cut it but the few that do are telling me something. One day soon your analog synths will look like the poor cousin next to vsti's and there cost of ownership and manufacture will see them go the way of other superseded technologies. A pinnacle game changer time will come and has come like the time Kasparof got beaten by Deep Blue chess computer and or when CD's arrived. It took a little time for the technologies to become commonplace but who would argue with the sound of 24/96khz audio or SACD's. Novations approach with super sample rate digital oscillators and analog filters is interesting as is the DSI Pro-12 but arguably its what happened before with the old hybrids of yesteryear in an attempt to compete with the all mighty DX7 which at the time single headedly destroyed the analog synth market. A lot has changed since the DX7 so who's to say that the new super powerful cheap digital clones will not destroy it again but this time for good - like the phonograph and CRT TV tubes, dead and buried and in a museum where they belong.
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Re: Behringer Model D

Postby Wonks » Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:39 pm

Oh FFS, please take the hint and shut up!
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Re: Behringer Model D

Postby blinddrew » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:29 pm

True to your signature there Wonks! :bouncy:
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Re: Behringer Model D

Postby BillB » Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:04 pm

Yeah, but it neatly captures the first words that came into all of our minds.
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Re: Behringer Model D

Postby BillB » Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:29 pm

Actually, I wasn't going to add anything more to this discussion ("putting out fires with gasoline!") but I was just skimming through Synth Secrets and came to the last instalment
https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques ... red-button
which, having discussed that many musicians want "the best synth", finally concludes (after 63 parts):
So — which is the best synthesizer? That's easy. It's the one that allows you to obtain the sounds you want.

Enough said.
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Re: Behringer Model D

Postby Guest » Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:40 pm

Wonks wrote:Oh FFS, please take the hint and shut up!

Sorry, didn't realise.
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