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Church organ and minimoog

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Church organ and minimoog

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 am
by Eddy Deegan
Stumbled across this tonight and thought it was rather interestingly different:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeHaO1bF8Ng

Improv on church organ and minimoog. The two go very well together!

Re: Church organ and minimoog

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:21 am
by IAA
I really like Jozef’s sound from the Moog really plays to its strength against the backdrop of the organ. I liked this earlier work too particularly with the bass pedal moving down the scale. It’s the absolute opposite to “polished” you can appreciate the wrestling he has to do. All my live work looked more like this - a real effort :D

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L6p41HBn2ic

Re: Church organ and minimoog

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:23 am
by Folderol
That really is quite excellent - wish I could play like that :thumbup:

Re: Church organ and minimoog

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:10 am
by blinddrew
I have always maintained that organists are actually a different species. It shouldn't be possible to keep track of that many keyboards.

Re: Church organ and minimoog

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:31 am
by Folderol
There are good organists, excellent ones... and those that fall off the bench trying to play Widor's Tocata.

{as I was told by an aged organist}

Re: Church organ and minimoog

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:51 am
by blinddrew
Didn't Victor Borge have a routine like that?

Re: Church organ and minimoog

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:46 pm
by Brian M Rose
I did an interview with two organ builders (the Shepherd Brothers) a while back. They were quite dismissive of 'electronic' organs - not the real thing at all!
It was quite fascinating just what goes into building a pipe organ. I believe they also service the BBC organs.

Re: Church organ and minimoog

PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:25 am
by Hugh Robjohns
Brian M Rose wrote:I did an interview with two organ builders (the Shepherd Brothers) a while back. They were quite dismissive of 'electronic' organs - not the real thing at all!

Obviously -- and a well designed and maintained pipe organ is a thing of great beauty.

But the hand-built complexity and need for regular ongoing maintenance means they cost seriously big money and, sadly, increasingly few organisations and churches can afford them these days.

In contrast, the 'electronic' alternatives have come on in leaps and bounds over the last few decades and when designed and installed well can deliver the goods with few being able to spot the difference, but at a price tag which is at least an order (if not two orders) of magnitude lower!

For the budget holders, it's very hard to argue against that reality...

H

Re: Church organ and minimoog

PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:44 pm
by MarkOne
An acquaintance of mine who is a seriously good church organist, went, a few years ago to a demonstration by (I think) Rodgers Organs at Wells Cathedral where they had their latest digital instrument side by side with the Cathedrals own mid 19th Century organ (containing pipework from the 18th Century instrument)

He admitted that it was really hard to tell which was which.

Re: Church organ and minimoog

PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:11 pm
by Hugh Robjohns
Yes. I had to record a performance of Zadok the Priest by the Exeter Cathedral Choir in the late 80s, but the Harrison & Harrison organ was being rebuilt at the time and an Allen digital organ had been installed for the period with the largest speaker cabinets I've ever seen! But you'd never guess it wasn't a real pipe organ during the concert -- either in the room or from the recording!

H

Re: Church organ and minimoog

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:55 am
by ef37a
There is it seems a degree of "snobbery" in the church organ world?

Dad was woodshop forman for Davies Organs Npton and I had the run of the place at weekends when about 8-10.

The company developed a pipe organ system that used electric action. Solenoids opened air to each pipe and bigger ones operated Stops. This meant that the "manual" the kbd, pedals and stops could be located in any convenient palce in a church or concert hall and the connection made to the pipe ranks by multicores and a lot of freakishly big "Jones" plugs.

The system was/is however not liked by the purists who insist that only "tracker" action is the real and proper way for an organ to "speak" . Trackers use lengths of thin wood to operate the pipes from the keys and are obviously limited on where the manual can be and how complex it all can get.

Davies also produced an all electronic "church" organ. This had an LC triode oscillator per key and was tuned with a 6BA nut spinner moving the spring loaded choke "I" lam limb.

They also produced a monophonic transistorized (the Bastds!) pedal board and the speakers were 12" Goodmans bass units 1/3 the way up and firing INTO a 12"x12" wooden column of about 9feet high iirc. Each speaker was driven by a modified Quad ll.

Dad is gone some time now. He was a decent "pub" pianist and could manage the first movement of the Moonlight. He would have LOVED a modern keyboard at home and the now fabulous repro quality we can get for really silly money these days.

Dave.

Re: Church organ and minimoog

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:28 am
by ConcertinaChap
Completely off topic (sorry) but the original link led me via a couple of others to this fascinating display of the insides of a working Mellotron.

CC

Re: Church organ and minimoog

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:45 am
by Hugh Robjohns
ef37a wrote:There is it seems a degree of "snobbery" in the church organ world?

Just a bit! I have some fabulous old books on the development and building of pipe organs, and you can almost feel the sneering coming off the pages!

The company developed a pipe organ system that used electric action.

Yes, it became a very popular upgrade in the mid-60s when transistors allowed clever logic control systems to be incorporated. In fact the British console company SSL actually started out in 1969 making electric control systems for pipe organs (the first mixing console didn't come along until nearly ten years later):

https://www.solidstatelogic.com/about/history

The system was/is however not liked by the purists who insist that only "tracker" action is the real and proper way for an organ to "speak" .

There is a movement within the organ world that claims the direct tracker system allows the player to 'feel' how and when the valves open and thus provides some degree of dynamic performance control vaguely akin to that of a piano. However, I remain rather unconvinced myself, and a study of the nature of the mechanics involves makes the claimed touch-response highly unlikely in all but the smallest of instruments... but I'm not a concert-standard organist so what do I know?!

He would have LOVED a modern keyboard at home and the now fabulous repro quality we can get for really silly money these days.

Absolutely! The quality of the free Hauptwerk pipe organ is astonishing, and the paid-for options are quite stunning! The practice (electronic) church organ I have here came from a chap in Blackpool who replaced it with a Hauptwerk-based theatre-organ system using a bespoke three-manual console that he was building himself, with the outer console casing, pedalboard and bench coming from a derelict and redundant cinema organ near Bradford. It filled his back bedroom, but sounded amazing!

H

Re: Church organ and minimoog

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:33 pm
by The Elf
ConcertinaChap wrote:Completely off topic (sorry) but the original link led me via a couple of others to this fascinating display of the insides of a working Mellotron
If you ever want to see a Mellotron in person there's a friend from my first school band that re-builds and builds Mellotrons from scratch and he's about a half-hour walk from the Toadstool. Its amazing to see how he brings these things to life. To me, the mechanics of a Mellotron are almost as engaging as the sounds they make.

He has rescued (one was salvaged from a theatre fire), wrecked and abused 'trons, but is also very adept at finding spares and other parts that look closely like the originals. IIRC he included cooker parts for one scratch build!

Building the instrument is only one part of the story. Creating the tapes is just as complex! The tapes have tones to tell the machine where it is along the length. This allows different sounds to be chosen, at least in the Mk2. This guy has even built his own machines to create those tones. It's incredible stuff to see! I'm beginning to wonder if a visit from SOS should be proposed...

This is he: https://youtu.be/8WzxBv-ZMrM

Personally I'm happy with my 4000D - much, much easier to maintain! :)

Sorry for the additional de-rail, but to make amends I'm using 'tron church organ on my latest tune!

Re: Church organ and minimoog

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:20 pm
by Martin Walker
Eddy Deegan wrote:Stumbled across this tonight and thought it was rather interestingly different:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeHaO1bF8Ng

Improv on church organ and minimoog. The two go very well together!

Great find, although I can't help thinking that his Minimoog sounds are all 'pipe-based' in origin, which is partly why the two instruments gel together so well.


Martin

Re: Church organ and minimoog

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:02 pm
by DGL.
Adding to this, remember also Jane Seymore from Rick Wakeman's 'The Six Wives Of Henry The Eighth'
Another fantastic organ piece with minimoog thrown in, I especially like the live versions with the more powerful organ sound.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7WbU1v0rVU

And as for Rodgers/Roland Organists, Hector Olivera was once their demo guy and he can really play, here is a couple of tracks from a Roland partner event, inc. the flight of the bumblebee played at full speed on the pedals!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBvj7dqroeU

Re: Church organ and minimoog

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:04 pm
by redlester
DGL. wrote:Adding to this, remember also Jane Seymore from Rick Wakeman's 'The Six Wives Of Henry The Eighth'
Another fantastic organ piece with minimoog thrown in, I especially like the live versions with the more powerful organ sound.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7WbU1v0rVU

Funny you should post that tonight. Coming home from work today I had my iPod on shuffle and it played Anne Boleyn from Six Wives. Takes me back to being a teenager, when I bought that album, took it home, listened to it, then went straight back out and bought Journey to the Centre of the Earth the very same day!

This thread is also tempting me towards this, which is on offer at the moment...
https://www.spitfireaudio.com/shop/a-z/ ... pel-organ/

Re: Church organ and minimoog

PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:52 pm
by Eddy Deegan
DGL. wrote:Adding to this, remember also Jane Seymore from Rick Wakeman's 'The Six Wives Of Henry The Eighth'
Another fantastic organ piece with minimoog thrown in, I especially like the live versions with the more powerful organ sound.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7WbU1v0rVU
A bit off-on-a-tangent but I love this piece. I did a training course many years ago and the trainer wanted to use it for his pending wedding. We got talking and I ended up taking a recording of the track, reverse engineering it and producing some sheet music for the organist to perform.

I didn't want monetary payment but as a 'thank you' he used my name in a number of the screenshot examples in a technical book he was writing (now long obsolete, but if any techie has it on a dusty bookshelf it's SAMS Teach yourself Exchange Server 5.5 in 21 days).

Cracking piece - I still have the sequencer file for it somewhere in my Trinity disk-boxes :)

Re: Church organ and minimoog

PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:02 pm
by wireman
Hugh Robjohns wrote:There is a movement within the organ world that claims the direct tracker system allows the player to 'feel' how and when the valves open and thus provides some degree of dynamic performance control vaguely akin to that of a piano. However, I remain rather unconvinced myself, and a study of the nature of the mechanics involves makes the claimed touch-response highly unlikely in all but the smallest of instruments... but I'm not a concert-standard organist so what do I know?!

If you want some backup (and more detail than you could ever care for) look at this research.

Hauptwerk is great but it is a bit weird listening to huge cathedral organ samples coming out of a bank of speakers in a modest church as the reverb does not match your expectations.

Re: Church organ and minimoog

PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:16 pm
by wireman
Eddy Deegan wrote:Stumbled across this tonight and thought it was rather interestingly different:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeHaO1bF8Ng

Improv on church organ and minimoog. The two go very well together!

Interesting. How about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7biFjXqXTQ