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MIDI 2.0!?

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Re: MIDI 2.0!?

Postby desmond » Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:58 pm

No they needed to be 8ndependant, you’re not always connecting the same devices bidirectionally. Or else you’d need breakout cables, but it would be a confusing mess...
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Re: MIDI 2.0!?

Postby The Elf » Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:16 pm

desmond wrote:No they needed to be 8ndependant, you’re not always connecting the same devices bidirectionally. Or else you’d need breakout cables, but it would be a confusing mess...
A receiving instrument that didn't want to receive would just ignore the incoming stream. Works for USB!
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Re: MIDI 2.0!?

Postby Dave B » Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:30 pm

Dave Smith always pushed for midi to be a 'star' topology, but the Roland bods kept pushing back that they wanted the 'thru'. They got their way which is why we have all these din cables everywhere.

One of the interesting thins about midi over usb is that it finally brings the concept back to Dave's original idea - a star topology.
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Re: MIDI 2.0!?

Postby Folderol » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:19 pm

When the MIDI spec. was set there was no such thing as USB. Also the instrument manufacturers were thinking in terms of controllers direct to synths without any form of hub - for which separate connectors make sense. Computers were expensive, unreliable and barely entered into their thoughts. Dave Smith was significantly ahead of his time in that respect.
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Re: MIDI 2.0!?

Postby The Elf » Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:55 pm

They didn't need to time travel to see the benefit of a bi-directional cable. MIDI was based on RS232, which was itself bi-directional. The pins were sitting there waiting to be used. It could have solved us all this two-cable mess we ended up in - and the difference between 'in' and 'out' seems to baffle many people - myself included on occasions! :lol:

Atari used the spare pins as a MIDI Thru on the Atari ST, which caused a lot of trouble, since by then many cables had the spare pins shorted to avoid confusion over which pins were the correct ones! The number of times I saw that one...

All water under the bridge and out to sea, though. Let's hope the backwards compatibility works as seamlessly as it always does... ;) :beamup:
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Re: MIDI 2.0!?

Postby N i g e l » Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:45 pm

Yamaha had their PS/2 port style, 1 cable MIDI. Did that have much impact on equipment or was it just Yamaha ?
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Re: MIDI 2.0!?

Postby DGL. » Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:59 pm

N i g e l wrote:Yamaha had their PS/2 port style, 1 cable MIDI. Did that have much impact on equipment or was it just Yamaha ?
Wasn't that a serial (either RS-232 (PC) or RS-422 for MAC) 'host' connector, 8 pins, quite a few manufacturers used that connection. My Korg 05R/W has this connector.
The only use of PS/2 connectors I know of for MIDI was the front panel sockets on the Creative Audigy PCI cards.
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Re: MIDI 2.0!?

Postby N i g e l » Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:54 pm

All the Reface's have a PS/2 connector for MIDI. They do come supplied with an in/out breakout cable.
Thats the only thing ive got that's single cable.

image is click-able & zoom-able....

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Re: MIDI 2.0!?

Postby DGL. » Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:22 am

N i g e l wrote:All the Reface's have a PS/2 connector for MIDI. They do come supplied with an in/out breakout cable.
Thats the only thing ive got that's single cable.

image is click-able & zoom-able....

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Forgot about the Reface series (despite having their PSS cousin), though the way they work is different to what creative had in teh fact that creative didn't combine the two in/out connectors in to one PS/2 style using one for each, I guess, using the same pinout as an AT-PS/2 keyboard adaptor.
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Re: MIDI 2.0!?

Postby N i g e l » Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:04 pm

The Elf wrote:They didn't need to time travel to see the benefit of a bi-directional cable. MIDI was based on RS232, which was itself bi-directional. The pins were sitting there waiting to be used. It could have solved us all this two-cable mess we ended up in - and the difference between 'in' and 'out' seems to baffle many people - myself included on occasions!

I think having seperate cables allows for a chain configuration, perfectly acceptable in the 80's, although because the electronics are asymmetric (on THRU), there is a limit of 3 or 4 synth modules from a master keyboard before the data gets slewed and erronious
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Re: MIDI 2.0!?

Postby desmond » Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:12 pm

Yay for MIDI 2.0!

Now we'll be back to the days with endless articles on MIDI, with message formats, and type-in listings for your very own personal computer to experiment with the new-fangled MIDI byte things... :thumbup: :clap:
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Re: MIDI 2.0!?

Postby Agharta » Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:35 pm

desmond wrote:Yay for MIDI 2.0!
Now we'll be back to the days with endless articles on MIDI, with message formats, and type-in listings for your very own personal computer to experiment with the new-fangled MIDI byte things... :thumbup: :clap:
Maybe we'll see a new Atari in time for MIDI 2.0! :D
I wrote a basic app for my Atari ST that created Philip Glass like riffs.
All very basic and probably written in BASIC! :thumbup:
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Re: MIDI 2.0!?

Postby BigRedX » Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:45 am

The PS2 style port for MIDI seems to be a Yamaha thing. The Tenori-On has it too. Nothing special about the connector, just a compact way of getting enough pins for MIDI in and out in a pre-existing form-factor.

Personally I think MIDI should go back to using XLR connectors as originally intended. All these nasty non-locking computer style connectors are simply not robust enough for gigging use.
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Re: MIDI 2.0!?

Postby ef37a » Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:32 pm

BigRedX wrote:The PS2 style port for MIDI seems to be a Yamaha thing. The Tenori-On has it too. Nothing special about the connector, just a compact way of getting enough pins for MIDI in and out in a pre-existing form-factor.

Personally I think MIDI should go back to using XLR connectors as originally intended. All these nasty non-locking computer style connectors are simply not robust enough for gigging use.

PS2 is knocking on! XLR seems overkill and DIN is being dropped like a hot brick, mainly due to size and cost I would imagine? I do however agree that it is a superb connector.

My vote stays with RJ45. They are cheap enough that you can keep 1/2 doz spares. The latch is vulnerable but you can get special boots that protect it and stop it snagging and surely someone can come up with a snap on 2 piece ABS cover that has a button to push the latch?

I think the very LAST thing we need is yet another bloody connector!

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Re: MIDI 2.0!?

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:01 pm

It will need to be cheap, and not easily confused with anything else to avoid damage. So while the RJ45 makes the first requirement, it fails the second.

Perhaps RJ11s (telephone type) connectors would be a safer option? ;-)

I love the idea of XLRs for MIDI on gigging equipment, but that fails on both counts and it's bulky, so perhaps mini-XLRs would be okay, although the expense probably rules them out too.

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Re: MIDI 2.0!?

Postby BigRedX » Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:06 pm

ef37a wrote:PS2 is knocking on! XLR seems overkill and DIN is being dropped like a hot brick, mainly due to size and cost I would imagine? I do however agree that it is a superb connector.

My vote stays with RJ45. They are cheap enough that you can keep 1/2 doz spares. The latch is vulnerable but you can get special boots that protect it and stop it snagging and surely someone can come up with a snap on 2 piece ABS cover that has a button to push the latch?

I think the very LAST thing we need is yet another bloody connector!

Dave.

The problem with RJ45 is not so much the connector (although even with the boot the latch is prone to failure and once that happens you find the connector no longer seats securely in the socket), but the type of cables associated with most of them.

Line6 have chosen to use RJ45 connectors and Cat5e cables to join their effects units and foot pedals together, and unfortunately IME they are simply not fit for purpose. Standard cables fail in less than a month of 2-3 gigs and rehearsals a week, and the expensive Van-Damme coilable cat5e cable lasted just over a years before it stopped being coilable, would not long lie flat and shortly after than failed. When I upgraded from a BassPod to a Helix I deliberately went for the floor unit so I was no long dependant on unreliable cables or connectors.

Computer cables and connectors are fine at home or in the office where they are rarely moved or unplugged, but in a gigging situation I have yet to find anything as robust as XLRs couple with high quality flexible screen cable.
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Re: MIDI 2.0!?

Postby Folderol » Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:13 pm

The most reliable connectors I've come across are industrial ones.

Pros.
Screw terminal internally (so field repairable)
Excellent cable retention

Cons.
Not screened
Very Bulky

They are this type.

There is also a 6 pin version in the same footprint, but that doesn't come with screw terminals.
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Re: MIDI 2.0!?

Postby ef37a » Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:59 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:It will need to be cheap, and not easily confused with anything else to avoid damage. So while the RJ45 makes the first requirement, it fails the second.

Perhaps RJ11s (telephone type) connectors would be a safer option? ;-)

I love the idea of XLRs for MIDI on gigging equipment, but that fails on both counts and it's bulky, so perhaps mini-XLRs would be okay, although the expense probably rules them out too.

H

Don't understand "not easily confused with anything else"? ALL XLR tend to look the same and they can be one of a dozen plus mics, lines, AES or, as some would have it MIDI!

RJ11?!! Wee and very fiddly (and might be confused with the pub's master socket?)

Cables? I have found UTP patch cable (not solid core) to be pretty robust and I again point out that this stuff is cheapo! Look upon the cables as a rather consumable item?

I don't gig so this is just my experience knocking about with the stuff but there has to be some sort of connector and the choices are limited. The metal bodied, locking 'B' DIN seems to have all but disappeared? Mind you, making up DIN cables is not for the 55plus!

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Re: MIDI 2.0!?

Postby N i g e l » Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:12 pm

Im not keen on latching connectors, when I trip on a cable, I want it to come out rather than drag the equipment off the desk/chair/amp !
:headbang:

The majority of future MIDI connectors will probably be USB C ? Laptop/phone/etc direct to equipment.

My cameras manufacturer has so much confidence in USB C that they provide a plastic widget that clicks into the body and acts as a support for the connector.
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Re: MIDI 2.0!?

Postby ef37a » Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:10 pm

been a hot debate ever since kit was made Nige'. Do you protect against an accidental shut down or having a 50W valve head on yer bonce?

Many would say you should not run cables where/so as they can be tripped over?

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