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MIDI 2.0!?

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Re: MIDI 2.0!?

PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:12 pm
by desmond
Yay for MIDI 2.0!

Now we'll be back to the days with endless articles on MIDI, with message formats, and type-in listings for your very own personal computer to experiment with the new-fangled MIDI byte things... :thumbup: :clap:

Re: MIDI 2.0!?

PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:35 pm
by Agharta
desmond wrote:Yay for MIDI 2.0!
Now we'll be back to the days with endless articles on MIDI, with message formats, and type-in listings for your very own personal computer to experiment with the new-fangled MIDI byte things... :thumbup: :clap:
Maybe we'll see a new Atari in time for MIDI 2.0! :D
I wrote a basic app for my Atari ST that created Philip Glass like riffs.
All very basic and probably written in BASIC! :thumbup:

Re: MIDI 2.0!?

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:45 am
by BigRedX
The PS2 style port for MIDI seems to be a Yamaha thing. The Tenori-On has it too. Nothing special about the connector, just a compact way of getting enough pins for MIDI in and out in a pre-existing form-factor.

Personally I think MIDI should go back to using XLR connectors as originally intended. All these nasty non-locking computer style connectors are simply not robust enough for gigging use.

Re: MIDI 2.0!?

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:32 pm
by ef37a
BigRedX wrote:The PS2 style port for MIDI seems to be a Yamaha thing. The Tenori-On has it too. Nothing special about the connector, just a compact way of getting enough pins for MIDI in and out in a pre-existing form-factor.

Personally I think MIDI should go back to using XLR connectors as originally intended. All these nasty non-locking computer style connectors are simply not robust enough for gigging use.

PS2 is knocking on! XLR seems overkill and DIN is being dropped like a hot brick, mainly due to size and cost I would imagine? I do however agree that it is a superb connector.

My vote stays with RJ45. They are cheap enough that you can keep 1/2 doz spares. The latch is vulnerable but you can get special boots that protect it and stop it snagging and surely someone can come up with a snap on 2 piece ABS cover that has a button to push the latch?

I think the very LAST thing we need is yet another bloody connector!

Dave.

Re: MIDI 2.0!?

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:01 pm
by Hugh Robjohns
It will need to be cheap, and not easily confused with anything else to avoid damage. So while the RJ45 makes the first requirement, it fails the second.

Perhaps RJ11s (telephone type) connectors would be a safer option? ;-)

I love the idea of XLRs for MIDI on gigging equipment, but that fails on both counts and it's bulky, so perhaps mini-XLRs would be okay, although the expense probably rules them out too.

H

Re: MIDI 2.0!?

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:06 pm
by BigRedX
ef37a wrote:PS2 is knocking on! XLR seems overkill and DIN is being dropped like a hot brick, mainly due to size and cost I would imagine? I do however agree that it is a superb connector.

My vote stays with RJ45. They are cheap enough that you can keep 1/2 doz spares. The latch is vulnerable but you can get special boots that protect it and stop it snagging and surely someone can come up with a snap on 2 piece ABS cover that has a button to push the latch?

I think the very LAST thing we need is yet another bloody connector!

Dave.

The problem with RJ45 is not so much the connector (although even with the boot the latch is prone to failure and once that happens you find the connector no longer seats securely in the socket), but the type of cables associated with most of them.

Line6 have chosen to use RJ45 connectors and Cat5e cables to join their effects units and foot pedals together, and unfortunately IME they are simply not fit for purpose. Standard cables fail in less than a month of 2-3 gigs and rehearsals a week, and the expensive Van-Damme coilable cat5e cable lasted just over a years before it stopped being coilable, would not long lie flat and shortly after than failed. When I upgraded from a BassPod to a Helix I deliberately went for the floor unit so I was no long dependant on unreliable cables or connectors.

Computer cables and connectors are fine at home or in the office where they are rarely moved or unplugged, but in a gigging situation I have yet to find anything as robust as XLRs couple with high quality flexible screen cable.

Re: MIDI 2.0!?

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:13 pm
by Folderol
The most reliable connectors I've come across are industrial ones.

Pros.
Screw terminal internally (so field repairable)
Excellent cable retention

Cons.
Not screened
Very Bulky

They are this type.

There is also a 6 pin version in the same footprint, but that doesn't come with screw terminals.

Re: MIDI 2.0!?

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:59 pm
by ef37a
Hugh Robjohns wrote:It will need to be cheap, and not easily confused with anything else to avoid damage. So while the RJ45 makes the first requirement, it fails the second.

Perhaps RJ11s (telephone type) connectors would be a safer option? ;-)

I love the idea of XLRs for MIDI on gigging equipment, but that fails on both counts and it's bulky, so perhaps mini-XLRs would be okay, although the expense probably rules them out too.

H

Don't understand "not easily confused with anything else"? ALL XLR tend to look the same and they can be one of a dozen plus mics, lines, AES or, as some would have it MIDI!

RJ11?!! Wee and very fiddly (and might be confused with the pub's master socket?)

Cables? I have found UTP patch cable (not solid core) to be pretty robust and I again point out that this stuff is cheapo! Look upon the cables as a rather consumable item?

I don't gig so this is just my experience knocking about with the stuff but there has to be some sort of connector and the choices are limited. The metal bodied, locking 'B' DIN seems to have all but disappeared? Mind you, making up DIN cables is not for the 55plus!

Dave.

Re: MIDI 2.0!?

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:12 pm
by N i g e l
Im not keen on latching connectors, when I trip on a cable, I want it to come out rather than drag the equipment off the desk/chair/amp !
:headbang:

The majority of future MIDI connectors will probably be USB C ? Laptop/phone/etc direct to equipment.

My cameras manufacturer has so much confidence in USB C that they provide a plastic widget that clicks into the body and acts as a support for the connector.

Re: MIDI 2.0!?

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:10 pm
by ef37a
been a hot debate ever since kit was made Nige'. Do you protect against an accidental shut down or having a 50W valve head on yer bonce?

Many would say you should not run cables where/so as they can be tripped over?

Dave.

Re: MIDI 2.0!?

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:40 pm
by blinddrew
ef37a wrote:Many would say you should not run cables where/so as they can be tripped over?

Dave.
Many haven't played arse-end pubs with one working plug socket on the other side of the pub.
Oh and you can't unplug the tv next to the stage because people will be watching the football later on... (true story) :headbang:

Re: MIDI 2.0!?

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:42 pm
by Eddy Deegan
The MID 2.0 spec, as far as I know, defines the protocol but says nothing about the physical connectors so I suspect unless the manufacturers come to some agreement on that aspect of things there may be various physical connection types.

One would hope that they standardise but we'll see. I haven't checked any of the updates lately.

I am quite excited by the prospect of MIDI 2.0 however, to the point where I'm considering researching the technical aspects of implementing my own VSTs in native code as I really want to create my own MIDI plugin for performance and jamming purposes and 2.0 looks to provide an extremely rich environment for doing that.

Re: MIDI 2.0!?

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:50 pm
by ef37a
blinddrew wrote:
ef37a wrote:Many would say you should not run cables where/so as they can be tripped over?

Dave.
Many haven't played arse-end pubs with one working plug socket on the other side of the pub.
Oh and you can't unplug the tv next to the stage because people will be watching the football later on... (true story) :headbang:

Done a lot of pubs in me yoof Drew (and you were never sure what the mains outlet would be. Kids got it easy these 13A days) but I take you point. However it will be YOU they sue if someone breaks their head!

Dave.

Re: MIDI 2.0!?

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:52 pm
by blinddrew
I know, i'm older and wiser now...

Re: MIDI 2.0!?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:16 pm
by N i g e l
Eddy Deegan wrote:The MID 2.0 spec, as far as I know, defines the protocol but says nothing about the physical connectors

.....or the electrics. MIDI 1.0 defined the electronics, as a current loop & frequency.

It would be nice if the MIDI 2.0 basic isolated connection ran a bit faster to get round the beat 1 bottle neck, especially as theres more than 16 channels now [!]

or is that 2020-30yrs thinking rather than thinking ahead to 2020+30yrs.

2050, it will probably be brain implants and AI by then !