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Internal PSU - so space isn't the issue...

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Re: Internal PSU - so space isn't the issue...

PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:12 pm
by The Elf
blinddrew wrote:I like Dave's hybrid suggestion though. 3 or 4 different power units that all comply to a set of standards and come in standard size boxes. Bolt on the back / bottom as final stage of manufacturing.
It can be even simpler - a standard 110-240V IEC connector!

Are you guys all so commonly experiencing power supply failures that they need to be always on the outside? The last PSU failure I had was about 5 years ago - and that was on an *external* PSU for a Novation Drumstation!

Re: Internal PSU - so space isn't the issue...

PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:40 pm
by ef37a
The Elf wrote:
blinddrew wrote:I like Dave's hybrid suggestion though. 3 or 4 different power units that all comply to a set of standards and come in standard size boxes. Bolt on the back / bottom as final stage of manufacturing.
It can be even simpler - a standard 110-240V IEC connector!

Are you guys all so commonly experiencing power supply failures that they need to be always on the outside? The last PSU failure I had was about 5 years ago - and that was on an *external* PSU for a Novation Drumstation!

That is the whole point of the thread Elf. Internal mains supplies give problems with production lines. As I said, it is cheaper to make the whole thing run on 12 volts or so and buy in a PSU from another manfctr. Yes, SMPSUs ARE very reliable but only because the people that make them have had vast experience* doing it. For a relatively small company to design one in house is a major PITA.

The company can also be sure that the dangerous bit meets all the safety regulations around the world. In short, they hand the problem over to somebody else!

*I "grew up" with the gestation of switch mode supplies. First in tellies then in VCRs and let me tell you they were unreliable ****! And to add insult to injury, bloody hard to repair. They also did not like thunderstorms!

Dave.

Re: Internal PSU - so space isn't the issue...

PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:21 pm
by BigRedX
Rich Hanson wrote:Many years back, we were setting up for a gig, I had an SY22 at the time which had an external PSU. Some klutz(*) stood on the low voltage cable, ripping the wire out of the plug into the synth. On that occasion we were lucky that the landlord had a universal supply that we could use.

(*) i.e. me

The low-voltage side of most external PSUs is appalling and they are supplied with all sorts of cludges to make the standard non-latching plug not be a liability on stage.

Both guitarists in my band, have in the last 6 months, had external PSU failures for their multi-effects pedals; one at the device end where the wrap to stop the lead being pulled out caused the cable to wear out, and the other at the PSU end.

Even if you fit these PSUs inside a rack case or on a pedal board, it's yet another thing that has to be secured into place, and I have yet to see one that makes this easy or reliable. I won't look at any equipment for live use that requires a external PSU unless it is indispensable and there is no alternative.

Re: Internal PSU - so space isn't the issue...

PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:59 pm
by The Elf
BigRedX wrote:I won't look at any equipment for live use that requires a external PSU unless it is indispensable and there is no alternative.
Yep, that's pretty much my approach. Other than laptops (for which I have at least two PSUs with me at all times) I now have *nothing* on stage with me that requires an external PSU - and that's how it's going to stay.

I'm prepared to make exceptional compromises in the studio, but it would have to be a heck of a goodie. I'm sick of having to find plugboard space for the wide/tall warts that prevent use of adjacent sockets, and find space for the line lumps with their 'just too short' cables.

But, as I said, while ever we roll over and take it - and even make their excuses for them - then manufacturers will continue to take the easy/cheap way out and leave us to make the best of it.

Re: Internal PSU - so space isn't the issue...

PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:43 pm
by Folderol
I've used these for all sorts of things. Small, cheap (even from RS) and all compliance issues taken care of. All it takes is some enterprising company to stick this on an angle plate prewired with a couple of output tails and a fused IEC chassis plug.

If all the PC makers (except Apple) have been able to agree a standard PSU for years why can't the synth makers? Indeed, for the larger synths, they probably could use a PC PSU

Re: Internal PSU - so space isn't the issue...

PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:35 pm
by ef37a
The Elf wrote:
BigRedX wrote:I won't look at any equipment for live use that requires a external PSU unless it is indispensable and there is no alternative.
Yep, that's pretty much my approach. Other than laptops (for which I have at least two PSUs with me at all times) I now have *nothing* on stage with me that requires an external PSU - and that's how it's going to stay.

I'm prepared to make exceptional compromises in the studio, but it would have to be a heck of a goodie. I'm sick of having to find plugboard space for the wide/tall warts that prevent use of adjacent sockets, and find space for the line lumps with their 'just too short' cables.

But, as I said, while ever we roll over and take it - and even make their excuses for them - then manufacturers will continue to take the easy/cheap way out and leave us to make the best of it.

I feel your pain Elf I really do! But manfctrs follow the public and the public WANTS cheap!

Now, if I was roadie'ing/techy'ing for a band (coz I can't play for **** now) and they had a gaggle of DC lumps I would put them all in case of some kind and tie all the mains cables to a common feed (they all draw bugger all) Then splice in some robust wire for the DC outs, carefully labelled for what goes where. Guitar pedals would run on rechargeable battery packs, no hum loops or twitterings!
Pickup from the Merc Sprinter, plonk on stage, find ONE 13A outlet, feed DC to kit. I am sure I could come up with some way to secure the cables to the synths? Solving **** like that was what I did for a living for ten years. Then a bit like that for 3 years at B's!

Dave.

Re: Internal PSU - so space isn't the issue...

PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:41 pm
by Exalted Wombat
Equipment that uses mains voltages requires safety certification for the territory it's sold in. Equipment than runs on 12 volts doesn't.

Rather than certifing 20 different models in each one of the territories, it makes sense to certify ONE external power supply for each territory. Or to buy it in from a specialist supplier.

And that's why we're going to continue to see wall-warts and power bricks.

Re: Internal PSU - so space isn't the issue...

PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:52 pm
by The Elf
Exalted Wombat wrote:Equipment that uses mains voltages requires safety certification for the territory it's sold in. Equipment than runs on 12 volts doesn't.

Rather than certifing 20 different models in each one of the territories, it makes sense to certify ONE external power supply for each territory. Or to buy it in from a specialist supplier.

And that's why we're going to continue to see wall-warts and power bricks.
Then why does so much gear (much of it inexpensive) have internal PSUs?

Re: Internal PSU - so space isn't the issue...

PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:31 pm
by ef37a
The Elf wrote:
Exalted Wombat wrote:Equipment that uses mains voltages requires safety certification for the territory it's sold in. Equipment than runs on 12 volts doesn't.

Rather than certifing 20 different models in each one of the territories, it makes sense to certify ONE external power supply for each territory. Or to buy it in from a specialist supplier.

And that's why we're going to continue to see wall-warts and power bricks.
Then why does so much gear (much of it inexpensive) have internal PSUs?

Who knows Ee! The world of the equipment designer is a weird one.
Often they will be given a design brief (by people who don't actually USE your particular bit of kit!) telling them. "You must use THIS loudspeaker drive unit" (coz the buyer, who is the MDs nephew cocked up and ordered 10,000 crap ones) or, "the case can be THIS long, wide deep, no more. Or.."We can't afford to build another production line for this product so it will go on the one with the 12 yr olds on it. Best no mains voltages".

Ok so that last one was a bit naughty but believe me! The reason things get made the way they do and why rarely follows a linear path and often has little logic to it.

As Mr Jagger had it? YCAGWYW...but you can try!

Dave.

Re: Internal PSU - so space isn't the issue...

PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:33 pm
by Folderol
Exalted Wombat wrote:Equipment that uses mains voltages requires safety certification for the territory it's sold in. Equipment than runs on 12 volts doesn't.

Rather than certifing 20 different models in each one of the territories, it makes sense to certify ONE external power supply for each territory. Or to buy it in from a specialist supplier.

And that's why we're going to continue to see wall-warts and power bricks.
Not the whole story.
If all the different bits of kit use a single unmodified, fully enclosed PSU module (and only that module has any high voltage parts), then only that module needs to be certified.
A company I worked for some years ago was in this situation, and the MD, rather than contacting certification companies (with a vested interest), instead talked to insurance companies.

Re: Internal PSU - so space isn't the issue...

PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:37 pm
by ef37a
An another thing!!
I have been banging a drum for AGES about the loss of MIDI ports on AIs. OT? you'd think but, bear with...

Much the same arguments re internal supplies i.e. cost, space. And yet some very low cost, sub £100 AIs have had DINs and some pretty expensive ones not. Again, little rhyme or reason.

Dave.

Re: Internal PSU - so space isn't the issue...

PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:02 pm
by James Perrett
Folderol wrote:I've used these for all sorts of things. Small, cheap (even from RS) and all compliance issues taken care of. All it takes is some enterprising company to stick this on an angle plate prewired with a couple of output tails and a fused IEC chassis plug.

I would have thought that something like the one at

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/embedded ... s/1812202/

would be more appropriate with all the high voltage parts encapsulated (though you'd still need a fused IEC inlet). Only a fiver plus the cost of the IEC connector and probably far cheaper than that from a distributor set up to deal in higher quantities.

Re: Internal PSU - so space isn't the issue...

PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:42 pm
by The Elf
James Perrett wrote:I would have thought that something like the one at
https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/embedded ... s/1812202/
...
Which constituency are you standing for? I'll vote for you! :clap: :thumbup:

You guys are great! :bouncy:

Re: Internal PSU - so space isn't the issue...

PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:36 am
by ef37a
James Perrett wrote:
Folderol wrote:I've used these for all sorts of things. Small, cheap (even from RS) and all compliance issues taken care of. All it takes is some enterprising company to stick this on an angle plate prewired with a couple of output tails and a fused IEC chassis plug.

I would have thought that something like the one at

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/embedded ... s/1812202/

would be more appropriate with all the high voltage parts encapsulated (though you'd still need a fused IEC inlet). Only a fiver plus the cost of the IEC connector and probably far cheaper than that from a distributor set up to deal in higher quantities.

Yes, all very nice but you still have mains volts coming into the equipment and that is where the regulations and handling problems lie.
You need the PSU totally insulated with just IEC one end and DC the other and not part of the case or chassis. Like my ex printer, almost.

Dave.

Re: Internal PSU - so space isn't the issue...

PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:22 pm
by johnny h
In my discussions with gear manufacturers, its a lot simpler to gets certification around the world when using external PSUs. Also its very easy to change an external power supply at a late stage, or even in later revisions (like with the Waldorf 4-Pole moving from 9v to 12v when part shortages necessitated different filter chips).