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Novice question - keyboard tuning.

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Re: Novice question - keyboard tuning.

Postby GilesAnt » Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:41 am

I'm no piano tuner but that doesn't sound desperately out of tune to me. You have given us a major 10th as your example - if you could include another octave doubling as well as a 5th it might become more obvious.
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Re: Novice question - keyboard tuning.

Postby adrian_k » Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:35 am

OK well I think that's a bit inconclusive. RichardT thinks it out, GilesAnt says it's not too bad. To me the B sounds sharp to the point of unpleasantness. I sent the recording to Roland support and the answer was that it was what they expected. So it's me...

Ah well thanks for listening!
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Re: Novice question - keyboard tuning.

Postby Sam Spoons » Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:45 pm

adrian_k wrote:I sent the recording to Roland support and the answer was that it was what they expected.

Did they explain why it is tuned to sound that way?
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Re: Novice question - keyboard tuning.

Postby adrian_k » Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:55 pm

Sam Spoons wrote:
adrian_k wrote:I sent the recording to Roland support and the answer was that it was what they expected.

Did they explain why it is tuned to sound that way?

No - someone listened and said “sounds alright to me guv”. But I’m not sure yet there is actually a tuning issue as such - I mean if it is faithful to a piano then the issue is with me. I can’t check that as I don’t have a piano. Based on the two opinions expressed on what I recorded it’s 50/50. I think I will have to learn to live with it.
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Re: Novice question - keyboard tuning.

Postby Kwackman » Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:08 pm

Have you listened on speakers as well as your headphones?
Reason for asking, many moons ago I read about tuning issues in headphones.
I can't remember any of the details, it might have been to do with singers and recording and totally irrelevant to your issues.
It was on the internet though, so it must have been true......
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Re: Novice question - keyboard tuning.

Postby adrian_k » Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:42 pm

Kwackman wrote:Have you listened on speakers as well as your headphones?

Yes, I did wonder if that was an issue, and I could probably convince myself it sounds slightly better on speakers until I turn the volume up slightly and it’s definitely back.

Not many people are venturing an opinion on the sound I recorded, if there was a bigger sample with a clear bias one way or the other it might tell me something I guess. Or not! :beamup:
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Re: Novice question - keyboard tuning.

Postby adrian_k » Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:03 pm

Ok it’s definitely me. My DAW came with a trial version of Truepianos, I fired it up and I hear the same. I guess I just don’t ‘like’ that interval on a piano. If I move the interval up an octave it sounds better. If I play it on a guitar it sounds better. If I play a string patch it sounds better.

As you were!
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Re: Novice question - keyboard tuning.

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:17 pm

Try playing the same interval in different keys.
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Re: Novice question - keyboard tuning.

Postby merlyn » Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:07 pm

A major third and therefore a major tenth are out by 14 cents in tempered tuning compared with the interval from the harmonic series.

In the harmonic series the 5th harmonic gives an interval of two octaves and a major third-ish, as you can hear going up the harmonics on a guitar string with the 'major third' coming out at the 4th fret on an open string.

Using the harmonic series the ratio of a major third is 5/4 which is ~386 cents (1200 * log2(5/4)) compared to 400 cents in tempered tuning.

The question then is why you would hear the interval differently on different instruments. The balance of the upper harmonics must be something to do with it. A piano does have a clear sound where you can hear the notes, maybe you're hearing the clash in the upper harmonics.
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Re: Novice question - keyboard tuning.

Postby adrian_k » Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:49 am

A quick point, a couple of posters have described the interval as a major 10th. I didn't do a very good job of describing in the OP, it's actually two octaves plus a third. A major 10th doesn't sound so awful to me, just slightly 'off'. (Unless I'm misunderstanding what a major 10th is).

To Huw's point, I did try this in various keys, it doesn't sound right in any of them to me but for example starting on C it might be subjectively slightly less unpleasant. I haven't done an exhaustive test.

One thing I noticed is that volume makes the effect more apparent to me - quieter is better (not a bad motto anyway ;) ).

I think I am dealing with something very subjective. It's a shame only two posters have expressed an opinion because you might find that there is a spread of opinions on what sounds 'good' and that might be completely normal. Or there is something wrong with my ears!
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Re: Novice question - keyboard tuning.

Postby merlyn » Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:04 am

I had a listen. My immediate subjective impression was that it was 'bright'. A bright interval played with a bright sound, a bright sound meaning strong harmonics. It sounded in tune in tempered tuning to me.

Listening more closely I can hear beats. I think it's the 5th harmonic of the G beating with the fundamental of the B. If you wanted to demonstrate that tempered tuning is slightly out, this would be one of the intervals to choose!

On the guitar it's possible to bend notes slightly, which means the piano is a different proposition. You may be able to find a piano sound that suits this piece better. A bit of reverb, turn the high frequencies down a bit maybe.
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Re: Novice question - keyboard tuning.

Postby ManFromGlass » Sat Aug 08, 2020 1:18 pm

Just a shot in the dark here -
It might be that the overtones of the original samples don’t transpose well if every note hasn’t been sampled and therefore are being “stretched”. Or maybe your ears are sensitive to the overtones in general and the way they combine on certain patches?
I might have missed you posting this, but have you tried that interval on a real piano?
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Re: Novice question - keyboard tuning.

Postby adrian_k » Sat Aug 08, 2020 2:09 pm

ManFromGlass wrote:I might have missed you posting this, but have you tried that interval on a real piano?

No, I don’t have access to one. At the moment anyway, maybe in a couple of months. Or at least no access to one that I can be fairly confident has been tuned recently.

If anyone has one maybe post a sample??
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