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Change keyboard sound during MIDI playback from DAW.

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Change keyboard sound during MIDI playback from DAW.

Postby claz » Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:09 pm

Here's what I'm trying to accomplish, using Reaper and a Casio CDP S350:

(1) [accomplished] Play back a MIDI track on Reaper through my keyboard

(2) [**need help**] Change the sound on the keyboard via the keyboard's program select knob.

I can successfully do (1), but for (2)

the sound that is actually played through keyboard remains constant,
no matter what sound is actually selected on the keyboard.

I *can* change the sound via a MIDI CC program change, but I'm looking for realtime control via my keyboard.

Thanks for any assistance!
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Re: Change keyboard sound during MIDI playback from DAW.

Postby The Elf » Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:13 pm

It sounds like you maybe have a MIDI Channel mis-match between the channel you are viewing on the keyboard and the one that is sending the Program Change message.

Hopefully you are running your keyboard in 'Local Off' and sending everything through your DAW. If this is the case then your DAW should re-channelise any program change you send in and direct it to the correct channel. If not then it will possibly lead to the kind of confusion you're describing.
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Re: Change keyboard sound during MIDI playback from DAW.

Postby claz » Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:02 pm

Dear The Elf:

Forgive the newbie response, but:

I *can* get a change of sound/program via MIDI message.

What I *can't* get is real-time program control via my keyboard's sound-selector knob.

I have the keyboard set to Channel 1, Reaper set to receive MIDI on all channels and send back out on the original channel. Local is Off.

Perhaps there's a mismatch that I'm not understanding?

Basically, I'd like the selector knob to change and control the midi output from the DAW, rather than the recorded MIDI Program CC message.

But maybe that's impossible?
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Re: Change keyboard sound during MIDI playback from DAW.

Postby The Elf » Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:10 pm

claz wrote:I have the keyboard set to Channel 1, Reaper set to receive MIDI on all channels and send back out on the original channel.
The keyboard is (should be!) sending the Program Change message to the DAW. The DAW needs to then re-channelise it and send it back to the keyboard on the appropriate MIDI channel. So... set the MIDI output channel to a number - not 'All'.
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Re: Change keyboard sound during MIDI playback from DAW.

Postby claz » Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:15 am

I appreciate the troubleshooting attempt! Unfortunately, changing the program from within the keyboard continues to have no effect on the sound that is played back when the DAW controls the keyboard. If it's not too much trouble, would you mind listing a concrete example of the routing you are describing?

Here's how I currently have it set up:

In Reaper
On a single track, have the input set to midi coming from the keyboard, and output set to the keyboard - I've tried "send back to original channel" as well as selecting a specific channel.

On the keyboard
I have tried local on and off.
The keyboard also has a channel setting, which is one by default and I have tried setting the channel equal to or unequal to the output channel in Reaper.

Midi is recorded just fine, and plays back through the keyboard also fine, and responds to program changes from within reaper. However, I cannot get the selected sound on the keyboard to override the program information coming from Reaper.

In case it's relevant, I'll mention why I am trying this in the first place: I would like to be able to set/record the sounds used for a midi track in a less cumbersome way than typing in the program and bank number from a long list each time I want to make a change. The keyboard itself is an easy way to do this, but if that doesn't work, I am open to alternative suggestions on how to quickly make program changes.

Thanks for reading...!
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Re: Change keyboard sound during MIDI playback from DAW.

Postby James Perrett » Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:00 am

Do you see the program changes if you use the JS MIDI Logger plug-in on the input? Is input monitoring enabled?
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Re: Change keyboard sound during MIDI playback from DAW.

Postby Eddy Deegan » Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:20 am

As a quick sanity check, does changing progams via the Casio work if you turn local control on?
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Re: Change keyboard sound during MIDI playback from DAW.

Postby claz » Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:55 pm

Thanks, chaps: success! The JS midi logger was helpful to see what was going on, as was monitoring with local on and off.

Despite getting it working, I don't understand why the ***'ed section below solved the problem.

Nevertheless, here's what ended up working, for my future self, who will forget, and for any other flummoxed readers:

Keyboard
Local: off
Channel: 1

Reaper > Track routing
Hardware Output: Casio USB
Send to ***any specific channel, just not "original channel"***

Diagnostic:
Track monitoring: on
FX: JS midi logger to make sure that turning the sound-select knob is actually sending program changes

Much appreciated, all!
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Re: Change keyboard sound during MIDI playback from DAW.

Postby The Elf » Tue Mar 02, 2021 4:06 pm

claz wrote:Reaper > Track routing
Hardware Output: Casio USB
Send to any specific channel, just not "original channel"
That's the critical bit!
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Re: Change keyboard sound during MIDI playback from DAW.

Postby claz » Tue Mar 02, 2021 5:24 pm

@The Elf:

Yes, you had correctly said this early on!

I think at the time I had other routing issues that were confounding the solution, so it didn't click for me.

Any suggestions for something I could read to understand the "why" of this?
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Re: Change keyboard sound during MIDI playback from DAW.

Postby The Elf » Tue Mar 02, 2021 7:06 pm

I'm sure you'll find something online, and probably in the SOS archives, but it's pretty much lesson #1 for connecting a MIDI keyboard to a DAW: Local Off to prevent the keyboard playing itself, DAW set to re-channelise and send the MIDI back out to the keyboard.

If you didn't set Local off then the keyboard would be both playing itself *and* the incoming MIDI notes - which is not what you want.

And if the DAW didn't re-channelise and thru-route the incoming MIDI data it wouldn't be able to play anything other than the attached keyboard's sending channel.
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Re: Change keyboard sound during MIDI playback from DAW.

Postby Eddy Deegan » Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:33 pm

The Elf wrote:I'm sure you'll find something online, and probably in the SOS archives, but it's pretty much lesson #1 for connecting a MIDI keyboard to a DAW: Local Off to prevent the keyboard playing itself, DAW set to re-channelise and send the MIDI back out to the keyboard.

I know that's the favoured approach but I never use it myself! I always record using local on but with monitoring for the channel(s) I'm recording disabled.

That means I don't hear any FX applied in the DAW of course but I can't say it's ever bothered me and 99% of the time I'm only recording to capture the MIDI so FX monitoring is moot anyway ;-)
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Re: Change keyboard sound during MIDI playback from DAW.

Postby The Elf » Thu Mar 04, 2021 5:09 pm

Eddy Deegan wrote:
The Elf wrote:I'm sure you'll find something online, and probably in the SOS archives, but it's pretty much lesson #1 for connecting a MIDI keyboard to a DAW: Local Off to prevent the keyboard playing itself, DAW set to re-channelise and send the MIDI back out to the keyboard.
I know that's the favoured approach but I never use it myself!
:shocked: :o :crazy:
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