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Re: DIY Studio Build Diary

Postby Helmutcrab » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:18 pm

I did think your wood frames were a bit heavy duty TBH but they will still do the job, might just need additional fittings. Glad you are getting use out of the metal frames too.

Im surprised to hear that - and heres me thinking i was making them as light as possible ! :headbang:

Do you have a design or suggestion you could share with me ?

I didn't do a bulk order as the timber yard are happy to cut wood as and when i need it. I don't know if they do 1 x 1 or 1.5 ". Im thinking that might work better for suspended panels but may be a bit fragile. The 2 x 45 mm sides do seem a bit much now you mention it.

Cheers

Peter
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Re: DIY Studio Build Diary

Postby Helmutcrab » Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:45 pm

Thefruitfarmer,

Thanks very much for pointing me in the right direction there regarding weight. The 1" x 2"s were definitely too heavy for suspending.

I've now got 1" x 1" cut ( with 4" corner and central supports ) and it is easily strong enough using the same design as above but with added centre braces.
I think i can trim a bit more off for the suspended panels too by reducing the corners to 3" and increasing the central supports from one 4" to two 1" x 1" braces ( same number of screws )

I should pont out for anyone following this that all cuts are dressed and metric so a 1" x 1" is actually 20 mm x 20 mm.

I will get some photos up of the frames next week.

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Re: DIY Studio Build Diary

Postby thefruitfarmer » Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:38 pm

What you have done will make it lighter, all it has to do is support the mineral wool slab.

I made my frames from 12mm thick plank, conveniently at 10cm wide and used a hole saw to "honeycomb" it. Of course, there are several ways to make an effective frame, depending on your woodworking skills and what materials and tools you have available...

Mine look like this...

Image

Image
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Re: DIY Studio Build Diary

Postby Helmutcrab » Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:00 pm

Those are very nice indeed, and the sides will give good diffraction i think. Thanks for sharing that with me.

I may be asking my timber yard if they have any 12 mm in on monday !

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Re: DIY Studio Build Diary

Postby Helmutcrab » Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:17 pm

Hi thefruitfarmer and co.

Here is the new frame and old frame for comparison. In theory the new one should be around 40 % lighter ( i think ) but in reality there seems little difference, but the sides are definitely more exposed which is good so i will keep it this way.

Image

Image

The main problem i have now is how to get the screws to form a solid corner.
I messed up the screw positioning on this first thinner frame :

Image

I realised after doing this that i should have used the method of inner side and outer side with adjacent screws like i did on the 1 x 2 frame :

Image

I can do this for the central portion of the corners as these blocks are 110 mm deep but i do not know how to strengthen the thin ( 20 mm x 20 mm ) outer frame at the corners. I can only get one 4 mm screw in with ease. Putting two in would be very tight.

Secondly, I was intending to use the same method as the 2 x 1 frame for making the four individual frames ie using just one screw either side into the corner blocks. I am not sure if this method is strong enough either as the blocks are twice the size now ( 110 mm x 93 mm instead of 60 x 45 mm ), with less than half the size of outer frame securing them ( 20 mm instead of 45 mm ).

I am also a little concerned about the strength of the 20 mm x 20 mm frame with regards to hanging after feeling how heavy 15 cm of 60 kg/m3 insulation is. I was intending to use eye screws 20 % in from the edges ( so cord is hidden ) but this would mean using the weakest parts of the frames ( the outer 20 mm x 20 mm frame ) for the eye screws.
I could use two 2" mid frame supports instead of one 4" but that would not allow central side support for the insulation when i tension joint mesh tape or twine here to prevent sagging.

Any ideas appreciated ?

Peter
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Re: DIY Studio Build Diary

Postby James Perrett » Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:38 pm

I used small triangles of thin plywood across the corners on the back face to make my frames rigidly square. I actually extended them outwards from the frame so that I could screw through them into the wall/ceiling studs to fix the frames. Not sure if you can see that from any of the photos I posted.

James.
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Re: DIY Studio Build Diary

Postby Helmutcrab » Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:58 pm

Thanks for that James. The only problem with that is i will be wanting to face the rear face of some of the panels into the room at some point for reflections ( rear is paper faced )

I think doing the corners in the same way as the 1 x 2 should work ( i am just about to find out ) but it also means an extra hours work per panel as i need 4 extra screws per individual frame to secure the larger corner posts first in order for it to work.

By the way, i did the maths and the thinner panels are 25 % lighter than the 1 x 2 panels, which isn't as much as i expected but i can definitely feel it when i lift them above the shoulders so its worth doing.

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Re: DIY Studio Build Diary

Postby Folderol » Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:03 pm

For something like this I would use 40mm plasterboard screws.
Before anyone objects...
They are cheap.
They are thin, so won't split the wood.
Have a coarse thread with a rough finish that holds really well.
Have a wide flat head that will sit in the wood without major bruising.
Have an excellent crosshead slot that really grips the screwdriver.

I've used these for a lot of lightweight frame/panel work - and even for holding up plasterboard!
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Re: DIY Studio Build Diary

Postby Helmutcrab » Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:38 pm

Thanks Folderol,

I am using 50 mm x 4 mm single thread screws at the moment and wouldn't want to go less than 50 for the central corners posts at least, but i get what your saying they don't half grip wood. If i need to get two screws in every 20 mm x 20 mm corner i might give them a try.

I have ordered a stanley light duty corner clamp as it was really hard doing the new smaller corners. hopefully it will help.

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Re: DIY Studio Build Diary

Postby thefruitfarmer » Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:49 pm

Corner clamps rock.
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Re: DIY Studio Build Diary

Postby Martin Walker » Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:13 pm

rock crushes paper ;)
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Re: DIY Studio Build Diary

Postby Helmutcrab » Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:30 pm

Just a quick update to say i finished some wood panels including the kraft backing paper and have got my final design which seems to work - same as last one but with two 2" blocks of wood spaced from the centre of the panels for support instead of one central 4". Will get some pictures up soon.

The fiberglass joint mesh tape did not work at all for preventing sag. When i tried to tension it just snapped through the staples.

I don't want to use a central wood strip as it will spoil the way the panels look and i really wanted to avoid having to do the full length with chicken wire. I was going to try a small ( 4"-6" wide ) central strip of the fine ( 13 mm holed ) metal mesh/netting/chicken wire and tension it with staples. I am compression fitting the mineral wool by 2 mm all round and the corners seem pretty snug.

Do you think this will be sufficient for the 60 kg/m3 i'm using or is it best to use the larger holed chicken wire and do the full length ?

Any thoughts ?

Cheers

Peter
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Re: DIY Studio Build Diary

Postby thefruitfarmer » Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:17 am

Helmutcrab wrote:

Do you think this will be sufficient for the 60 kg/m3 i'm using or is it best to use the larger holed chicken wire and do the full length ?

Any thoughts ?

Cheers

Peter

Personally, I would bite the bullet and fit the chicken wire.

It is an arse to work with, it will take a while if you are not used to it and you can cut yourself on the stuff. However, it will do the job.

Bear in mind that it will be covered by fabric so it does not need to be spot on accurate, you are not going to see it in the finished article.
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Re: DIY Studio Build Diary

Postby Helmutcrab » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:46 pm

Hi thefruitfarmer,

I tried this http://www.meshdirect.co.uk/Lightweight-19-20-gauge-0-9mm-wi... type of wire mesh (13 x 13 mm) in 2 thin strips across the panel - didn't work.

I then tried to get the same mesh over the full panel but regardless of what i did it always bubbled up in the middle even under considerable tension - right where i did not want it too. I think the main reason is because it is 900 mm wide and cutting both sides would take too long. I think the only way the mesh may work is if it had a wooden batt across the centre but that defeats the purpose.

Looks like its chicken wire time !. Do you think it will be strong enough in the centre to take 6" of rockwool pressing down on it when the panels are hung from the ceiling and wall/ceiling corners ?

I'm off to get some chicken wire - this is going to be fun. My fingers are already bust up by the mesh.

Got any tips please ?

Peter
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Re: DIY Studio Build Diary

Postby thefruitfarmer » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:08 pm

Helmutcrab wrote:

Looks like its chicken wire time !. Do you think it will be strong enough in the centre to take 6" of rockwool pressing down on it when the panels are hung from the ceiling and wall/ceiling corners ?

I'm off to get some chicken wire - this is going to be fun. My fingers are already bust up by the mesh.

Got any tips please ?

Peter

It is quite a fiddly job.

Be prepared to spend a bit of time doing it.

However, I found it easiest when I got the chicken wire the same width as the slab and used long nosed pliers to yank it tight with...

It can cut you so get some sticky plasters as well.

Once done it will hold the RW in place.

It is quite hard to describe how to fit it over the forum. Something I did do was to push the long sides of the frame in slightly and then use the springiness to help tension the chicken wire.

Try to get it so the sharp ends of wire are inside the frame or you may have to put some beading over them to stop them cutting you each time you move them...
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Re: DIY Studio Build Diary

Postby Folderol » Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:45 pm

Helmutcrab wrote:Hi thefruitfarmer,

I tried this http://www.meshdirect.co.uk/Lightweight-19-20-gauge-0-9mm-wi... type of wire mesh (13 x 13 mm) in 2 thin strips across the panel - didn't work.

I then tried to get the same mesh over the full panel but regardless of what i did it always bubbled up in the middle even under considerable tension - right where i did not want it too. I think the main reason is because it is 900 mm wide and cutting both sides would take too long. I think the only way the mesh may work is if it had a wooden batt across the centre but that defeats the purpose.
Remember what I said about giving the wire a twist with a pair of pliers? It works especially well on this type of mesh.
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Re: DIY Studio Build Diary

Postby Helmutcrab » Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:01 pm

You beauty ! Chicken wire worked a treat :).

It is rock solid and won't sag. It was easy compared to the galvanised mesh i was trying to use before - that was hell. If only i had used chicken wire at the start as suggested by thefruitfarmer i could have saved myself a lot of hassle, but lessons learned.

The fruit farmer - that trick with the broad nose pliers worked a treat, especially when i could grip the wire with the pliers, then use the end of them to push the long sides of the frame inwards, so thanks very much for that one :D.

Folderol - thanks for that tip also. I actually didn't need to use it as it was really tight once finished but it is very handy to know if i don't get a panel tight enough with staples :D

I am so chuffed this worked and how good it works.

I would like to add a couple of things safety wise for anyone interested. Use gloves with a good springy rubber grip. These were brilliant and totally protected my hands from getting cut and damaged from pressure :

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Workwear/Gloves/Thermogrip+Gloves+XLarge/d70/sd570/p32235

Also, you really need to wear large protective glasses like these :

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Workwear/Eyewear/Safety+Spectacles/d70/sd2775/p96583

If any of that wire springs back in your eyes its game over for vision. I had that happen with the wire at the start as the first metre of it was all mangled and had to be cut off. Only caught my nose though and i was wearing glasses.

I will get some photos up soon.

Thanks very much fellas

Peter
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Re: DIY Studio Build Diary

Postby Helmutcrab » Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:48 pm

Update with photos

The final design i think. Same as last one but with two 2" supports as seen instead of one 4" will give more even support.

Image

Unpacking 50 metres of 4 oz polyester wadding (40" wide). I got a bit of a shock when i snipped off the plastic straps and took it out. The pictures do not show just how big it was uncovered. It nearly filled half the width of the room and was even bigger when stood up length ways. I had to do some room rearranging so i could get enough room to cut it.

Image

Image

Just about managed :

Image

First effort at covering in 10 oz hessian ( open weave upholstery fabric ). Probably stapled a bit tight. You will probably notice hailstones just starting. It turned into a torrential downpour just after i took these photos.

Image

Kraft paper and 13 mm chicken wire visible on rear of panel.

Image

Front of panel covered in chicken wire, poly wadding and hessian. As you can see i made the mistake of putting the cut corner ends of hessian on top of the rest of the hessian. I will put these underneath the full hessian covering so they are not visible on the rest of the panels and can be secured with the same staples used for the full covering.

Image

There was no wood left to attach the hessian to the rear of the frame due to this been used to staple the chicken wire. I therefore had to trim it around the full length of the panel.

Image

This first panel was actually one of the earlier heavier 1" x 2" frames ( i made two like this before thefruitfarmer made me realise they were unnecessarily heavy for wall hanging ) . They will be used to stand in a room corner.

As mentioned earlier, i covered both the front and rear faces with chicken wire with the intention of turning the panels around for different situations ( absorption for recording and semi reflection - paper - for mixing ).This would stop them sagging or coming out of the frame/losing their shape, but i don't think it is necessary to do both sides now as i have decided to leave the panels in place once fitted. I have decided this primarily because the chicken wire needs to be trimmed off at the 600 mm sides/ends of the panels in order to allow the fabric to be stapled there. As already mentioned by thefruitfarmer, this causes sharp ends of metal to protrude through the fabric. The excess chicken wire from tensioning on the 1200 mm sides can be compressed back into the frame without any loss of tension as long as enough staples are used on both sides. This is allowed by the fact that the 600mm wide chicken wire has metal strips at each side to avoid sharp ends. However at the cut ends this is obviously not the case. The only way i found around this problem was to leave a little excess wire and fold it over the corner of the wood with a hammer. I could not leave too much wire on the rear side as this is where the fabric needed to be stapled. If i just use chicken wire on one face, then this problem can be avoided by folding over a larger amount of wire, therefore reducing the chance of it sticking up.

I would love to know how Zukan and Max managed to wrap and staple fabric all around both faces of their thin wood panels which had chicken wire on both sides. Maybe they just did as i did ?

Also, i would like to thank both Zukan and Max for the SOS D.I.Y tutorial as it helped me to fit the chicken wire.

Cheers

Peter
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Re: DIY Studio Build Diary

Postby thefruitfarmer » Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:38 pm

Excellent pics...

When you going to get them fitted to hear what difference they make?

Have you decided how to fit them yet?

I used screw eyes and cable ties, but there are several other methods too......
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Re: DIY Studio Build Diary

Postby Helmutcrab » Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:01 pm

Hi thefruitfarmer,

It is really tight in the room at present because i had to buy a lot of the insulation as a bulk buy. I am going to try to stand the eight corner panels up first once they are made to give me a little more space. There is just so much stuff in there for the build that i need to get some space and the best way to do that is to build more but i get what your saying. I will try the sound as soon as i get the corners done i think.

Do you think my plan of 25 + panels is over kill ? ( 2-3 will double as gobos)

I am fitting the panels like yourself with eye screws but plan to use picture hanging cord ( can take 5 stones ) :

http://www.ukpictureframingsupplies.co.uk/low-stretch-picture-hanging-cord-no-2---sold-per-metre-166-p.asp

I will use four eye screws for the wall/ceiling corner panels. These will attach to two large long ceiling eye hooks/screws screwed through the double plasterboard of the ceiling and into the joists ( plenty joists available at 33-40 cm's apart ).

For the wall hanging panels, i cannot attach them to the walls as the walls cannot bare any weight ( made them wrong ). I was thinking of using two screw eyes close together on both sides on the top of the panels with the same hanging cord going up to the same ceiling eye hooks.
The wall panels will be 6" off the wall. I will use 2 or 4 wooden corner pieces ( 6" long ) glued to the backs of the panels to stabilise them off the wall.

Does this sound feasible to you ?

Thanks

Peter
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