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Roland: Perishing Glue on Key Weights.

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Re: Roland: Perishing Glue on Key Weights.

Postby HippoSkinScoop » Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:14 am

My uncle gave me an EP 7, with a case. It worked fine when I first tried it out, then I put it in the case for a while (I’m not a keys player, just like to poke around occasionally.) I set it up again and one of the keys stopped working, I assumed one of my kids had jammed a penny in there or something. Gradually more keys started started sticking. So I stuck it back in the case again, until yesterday, I unscrewed the back and found the cause. It was great finding this thread , saved me a lot of trial and error.I disassembled all the keys and I ordered the NaOH which should be here tomorrow. I think getting the epoxy off the keys and weights sounds pretty straight forward, but the black keys dripped down into the rubber contact pad strip. I’m not sure what the best way to get it out of there is. It’s pretty thin rubber and it’s attached in a way that seemingly isn’t meant to be removed and replaced easily.
Image
Thanks! I’ll let you know if I get it all back together again.
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Re: Roland: Perishing Glue on Key Weights.

Postby BillB » Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:37 pm

Hi HippoSkinScoop and welcome to the forum :wave:

My JD-800, referred to in posts above, is now back together and happily working. You are right that it is relatively easy to get the red glue(p) out of the keys, but not easy to get it out of the contact strips, especially the little depressions in the rubber which you have shown in your photo. Furthermore the rubber strips do deteriorate and get a bit more brittle over time. They are held against the frame with a series of little rubber lugs that protrude through holes in the steel. My experience was that the old ones were difficult to push out (I used two fingers of one hand to push from the lug side and the other hand to simultaneously pull. It is very easy to damage them. And if you hit a problem (e.g. key contacts not fully cleaned) which you only find out when it is fully assembled, repeating the whole process is quite likely to be terminal. I ordered a set of contact strips from Syntaur in the U.S., who seem to have contact strips for the EP7, but you would need to check carefully.
https://syntaur.com/roland_ep.html

I was really worried that these new set of strips might get damaged when being pushed in, but the new rubber is much more pliable than the old, and I had no problem in the end - using a cut and smooth-sanded wooden cocktail stick to push the lugs through.

I found this video (JD-880) incredibly helpful due to the systematic, patient way the guy explained everything.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OWcU3UvF7c

Hope that helps, and good luck!
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Re: Roland: Perishing Glue on Key Weights.

Postby HippoSkinScoop » Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:56 pm

I just rinsed off the keys and weights after soaking them in the NaOH. (Soaking them in some soapy water at the moment). I went to tackle the contact strips and was pleasantly surprised to find it was pretty easy to clean up. The epoxy doesn’t seem to adhere to the rubber like it does to metal and plastic. I just kinda squeezed one way and then the other to kinda deform the epoxy in the little “cups”, and then just pulled out the little “plugs”. No residue left behind!

I’m thinking now about reassembly and wondering how to reattach the plastic strips that hold the keys in place. I was thinking of using Goof Off to get the old glue off, and using double sided tape. Will that work? Is there a specific type of tape that I should use for that?
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Re: Roland: Perishing Glue on Key Weights.

Postby Gianni Veloce » Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:10 pm

Hi Guys
I am on the same boat as well!!!.
After 8 years having my old D70 stored in a case I checked it and red glue has dominated the whole keyboard!
Almost all the weights of the white keys are laying around and almost all of the weigths of the black keys are still in completely or partly/hanging out.
I am preparing for NaOH solution for cleaning the keys.
But how I clean the red glue residue from the circuit board next to the rubber contacts?
Is NaOH solution allowed there?

TIA
GV
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Re: Roland: Perishing Glue on Key Weights - new aspect to the problem

Postby BobPinsker_SD » Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:07 am

Hi, all -

Ok, I have found this the hard way. I have a very old Roland EP-7 that I bought used many years ago. I had it stored in the garage for more than a decade. The other day, I dragged it in and disassembled it and discovered that a bunch of the key weights had dropped off, etc. The now-familiar syndrome. The only slight variation from what others describe is that what everyone refers to as red or pink epoxy to me looks brown. Fiddling around (before I googled it), I found that the glue more or less melted upon heating it with a hair dryer. I have not gone to the effort of taking it all apart, cleaning every key and regluing with something presumably longer lasting (?) Rather, I just reset the missing weights and kind of melted them back into place with the hair dryer. Then I realized that a lot of the stuff running down was sticking keys together, etc. So I got the keyboard out and started disassembling keys and cleaning the excess glue off the sides of the keys by applying a little heat from the hair dryer and isopropyl alcohol on swabs once the glue softened. Put it all back together. Now, I should have powered up the keyboard before opening it! But I couldn't find the power supply for a day or two. Finally I did - in the garage a few feet away from where the keyboard had been for the past decade - and *then* tried the keyboard. It works - sort of. Specifically, of the 76 notes, all but a consecutive run of 22 of them work perfectly! The lowest 46 notes all work correctly, then from notes 47 to 68, inclusive, none work at all. No sound. Then the top 8 notes work fine. The problem is not with the synthesizer, in that the demo (Chopin Minute waltz excerpt) plays perfectly, including a lot of notes in the run of 22 non-functioning keys.
The brain-teaser about this is how could it possibly be that set of consecutive keys that don't work at all, in that the boundaries of that bad run do not correlate with anything? The boundary between the two contact boards is between notes 32 and 33 (i.e., the lower board has the first 32 notes, the upper board has the remaining 44). The matrix looks like it's in groups of 8 notes starting with the lowest note, and the uppermost group uses 4 notes (notes 73-76 inclusive), so that neither the lower nor the upper boundaries are between groups. It's not a question of getting one of the two ribbon connectors that go into the main board seated correctly, in that I have disconnected first one then the other and it's not a question of one of them not being connected. I did a factory reset in case it was some weirdness that could be fixed like that, to no effect. (Press REC and PLAY simultaneously, then press STRINGS, then power off and back on again.) I guess if nobody has a suggestion, I will take off all of the keys in that run and carefully inspect the contact boards and the rubber sheets (oh, another lack of correlation is that the rubber sheets are, starting at the bass end, 1 group of 8 notes, followed by 5 groups of 12 notes, then 1 of 8 notes - so the upper boundary is correlated with the start of the highest contact rubber sheet, but the lower boundary is not, because 22 is not a multiple of 12!) But I cannot see how there could be anything wrong with these things that would cause this exact symptom. Can anyone here?
Thanks for any advice and/or insight anyone can provide!
Very best,
Bob P. in San Diego
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Re: Roland: Perishing Glue on Key Weights.

Postby BobPinsker_SD » Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:51 am

Hi, all -

Thought I should post the sequel regarding my old EP-7. In short, it turned out that the fact that 22 keys in a row were not working was simply due to the contacts needing to be cleaned for all of those keys. The only aspect that I found had not been mentioned somewhere was this: I found it useful to remove the 22 keys in question, plus a couple more on each end of the bad section, then reconnect the keyboard with the rubber contact strips showing. Before I did anything more, I found that I could tap the place on the contact strips with my finger and make the notes sound, at least most of them. I guess one can get a bit more emphatic contact this way than the keys make. So that way I realized that it was just a question of glue intrusion, maybe just the vapors, causing the problem. Removing the contact rubber was not particularly easy, since it looks like it's not possible to source replacements at this date, so I was really worried about the little rubber mushrooms that hold on the strip ripping off. I suppose there is some special tool one could try to make that somehow would allow one to scrunch up the mushroom and shove it through the hole from below. Not having such a thing, I sort of poked and prodded with the tip of a paperclip wire at each one until I could shove it through. Having gotten them off without ripping off any of those, I cleaned the contacts both on the rubber strip and on the contact board (similarly, cannot source a replacement contact board). I could see the region of a little bit of intrusion of a thin layer of glue along the edge. It's quite amazing how that stuff spreads around once it gets out from underneath the keys. Stories about smoke causing the contacts to fail eventually convinced me that this was possible. Sure enough, I reassembled it and found that miraculously all but a couple of the keys worked. I pulled it apart *again* to have another go at the bad ones, and once again managed to get the rubber strip off without losing any of the little mushrooms, though they're getting a little torn up - they're still intact (barely). Now only one key of the 76 is a little weak. I have to be satisfied with GOOD ENOUGH at this point, I think. To clean, I did as people suggest and got a bottle of 91% isopropyl alcohol at the drugstore and used cotton swabs to gently clean. Funny thing is that I really couldn't see much coming off onto the swabs in the way of debris or schmutz, but it works! I can see that cleaning the contacts on the board is a little tricky in that I got the feeling that if I were to scrub it too hard, the contacts would have come off completely and I would have been screwed. It seems you have to be just gentle enough. In a way, I found that the whole arrangement is amazingly simple when you get right down to it. And the way that the two dimples on the underside of the rubber contact sheet have different depths and that's how they get touch sensitivity - amazingly simple and clever! Just time the time interval between the two contacts! How clever!
So now I'm happy - I have my 28-year-old keyboard back with me and working. :D
Thanks to all who have posted to this thread over these many years!
Best regards,
Bob P. in San Diego
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Re: Roland: Perishing Glue on Key Weights.

Postby zenguitar » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:08 am

Thanks for the update Bob.

Andy :beamup:
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Re: Roland: Perishing Glue on Key Weights.

Postby blinddrew » Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:46 am

Sometimes 'good enough' is good enough. :thumbup:
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Re: Roland: Perishing Glue on Key Weights.

Postby Folderol » Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:22 pm

blinddrew wrote:Sometimes 'good enough' is good enough. :thumbup:
It's called "an engineer's solution" :bouncy:
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Re: Roland: Perishing Glue on Key Weights.

Postby BillB » Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:15 pm

Bob, thanks for sharing your successful solution. I’m really pleased you managed to get the old rubber strips off - twice! That was the part that really had me bothered with the JD-800 repair and why I invested in new strips, but they seem (not surprisingly) to be getting harder to find.

Hope you enjoy your EP. It’s a really great feeling to take something that has issues (or is fully broken) and turn it back into a useful, useable instrument.

Bill :clap:
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Re: Roland: Perishing Glue on Key Weights.

Postby justnicolyn » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:10 am

I’m desperate here. I’ve gone through the horror of the red glue plague on my Roland ep7. I made the mistake of not writing down the key parts in order to put it all back together. Anyone have this magical order? HELP!
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Re: Roland: Perishing Glue on Key Weights.

Postby BillB » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:24 pm

Don't panic! Look at a photo (google) or a graphic (manual?) of your keyboard. Note which key the keyboard starts with. Arrange the keys working from left to right, noting that white keys E and F butt-up against each other between D# and F# black keys, and the same with B/C between A#/C#.

Possibly G and A will be left/right mirror images of each other, fitting in the narrow gaps between the 3 black keys, then D is probably symmetrical, fitting between the two black keys.

From recollection with the JD-800, the white key shapes can only go together with the black ones in one way. If you set them out carefully and note the subtle differences (especially for the top and bottom keys!) you should be fine.

The little numbers printed on the keys don't matter - just the shapes!
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