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Roland: Perishing Glue on Key Weights.

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Re: Roland: Perishing Glue on Key Weights.

Postby wknick » Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:08 am

Caustic Soda (NaOH) it is!!! You guys are the best for posting this info! I was totally bummed cause I thought I got a good deal on a used D70 only to learn it was afflicted with the dreaded melted epoxy on the keys syndrome. Went and got some Caustic Soda from Lowe's and the adhesive was dissolving and coming off within minutes! Excellent info! Can't thank you enough!
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Re: Roland: Perishing Glue on Key Weights.

Postby wknick » Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:13 am

Just be extremely careful with Caustic Soda to anyone that uses this stuff to clean the keys. I also bought some chemical resistant gloves, respirator and eye protection. Very poisonous and harmful. Can cause burns in contact with the skin...!
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Re: Roland: Perishing Glue on Key Weights.

Postby funkyant » Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:02 am

Wow. I seriously cannot believe this thread is still going!

Caustic Soda huh? Who would've thunk it?
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Re: Roland: Perishing Glue on Key Weights.

Postby FA13 » Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:28 pm

Great thread :) I'm about to pickup a Roland U-20 and a Roland JV-80 for a few bucks that are both advertised as 'most keys not working'. I'm gonna try and fix them just for the fun of it.

When I have them and have taken them apart I will share my experiences.

Bonus tip: if you're looking for free PDF service manuals for a lot of vintage synths look no further: http://www.synfo.nl/pages/servicemanuals.html (not my site, just found it googling for answers :))
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Re: Roland: Perishing Glue on Key Weights.

Postby Tartaruga » Mon May 14, 2012 10:32 am

‘Red Epoxy Syndrom ‘ alert…!!!
The weights of my beloved JD-800 start to fall(and local Roland servicing is not trust worthy… :-(
To make things worth,I don’t know if I can trust my DIY abilities …I’m I totally doomed?
Could anyone give the contact adress of ‘Roland’,I would like to talk with them but can’t find the address(Europe,Portugal,whatever…)?
Thanks for your time.
Cheers.
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Re: Roland: Perishing Glue on Key Weights.

Postby Timmo » Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:09 pm

My XP80 has the same perishing glue issue. I have taken the steps above and stripped the keyboard down, cleaned all of the keys using a strong solution of caustic soda, (I was a bit dubious of this at first, but it's fine), and I've re-glued the keys using a good quality glue.
My problem is that, apart from losing one of the retaining springs somewhere in the mess of my office, one of the white keys is physically shorter than the rest in length and therefore sits low, I numbered all the keys as I took them off so i know it is back in the original place, I've swapped it with another key the same shape, the new key sits fine, so can anyone tell me if they have experienced the same issue, or how the key was sitting perfectly prior to me taking it apart to clean?
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Re: Roland: Perishing Glue on Key Weights.

Postby keyboardologist » Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:26 pm

Hello,
I'm also trying to fix my beloved D70, I have collected 2 more used same synths (D70) with the glue problem (plus some more) and I have managed to repair in total 2 of these, but all 3 keyboards suffer from perishing glue.
I was considering keeping the best of the 76 (out of 228), just for the one clav, but I have a lot of work to do to fix them. I will try Caustic Soda to one key and see the results. Also, I was thinking about using warm silicone for gluing the weights onto the keys.
I would get back with news...
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Re: Roland: Perishing Glue on Key Weights.

Postby SKY5031 » Sat Jun 08, 2013 6:38 am

The conditions that I have run into that causes the problem with decomposition of the epoxy used by Roland keyboards such as the JV 50 80 90 1000, xp 80 90, U20's and others that have this type of epoxy in part is caused by the case that it is stored in. You wonder how ? The foam
padding used in most cases is what they call a closed cell foam, and the bubbles that you see that make up the foam action is in part a gas action caused while curing the foam into a shape. In time all plastics go though a form a decomposition and in the process give off a gas that in trap in the process of manufacturing. In the case of the Roland keyboards that I've repaired they have been stored for a period of time in closed case and while closed the foam material starts a process of out gasing. The gas that is produced interacts with the curing agent in the epoxy causing the the decomposition and running of the glue all over he keys and frame parts. Is there a fix? Yes and a way to clean this glue up. I've talked to Roland service dept about this problem and the interaction of the materials and sent them the procedure that I use to repair the keyboard rack. It requires time, and dis-assembly of all the keyboard components and then re-gluing with a 5-minute epoxy. I'll add second post with the instructions.
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Re: Roland: Perishing Glue on Key Weights.

Postby SKY5031 » Sat Jun 08, 2013 7:16 am

instructions for epoxy glue removal.use at your own risk.
shopping list:1 deep pan or bucket, 1 small wide paint brush, 1 pair rubber gloves, and the cleaning agent is call "Awesome" purchase thu the dollar store or dollar general, most chain store
carry this brand, !IMPORTANT! use only the yellow colored product for this process.
Remove 1 white key and one black key. for testing. with a small amount of awesome take and dip a
"Q" tip in the solution to test the plastic of the key on back end of the key, this cannot be used cheaper plastic which is not made like the higher end keys .Rub the plastic with
the solution to make sure that the Awesome doesnt attack the plastic and leave a mark where you've rubbed it, judged safe proceed. Most of the better keyboard use glass filled nylon key when they were molded and most cleaning agents will not attack the plastic. Once your sure that there is not a inter action of the cleaner dis assemble the keyboard rack (take pictures of the key assembly so you dont forget where things go, draw pictures, mark cables etc. With all the keys off place in the bucket, pour the awesome in to the bucket and cover all the keys,let sit for five hours. You'll notice after awhile the glue will start to dissolve, weights will fall off to the bottom of the bucket or pry off easy. Once weights are off raise with water and repeat using the gloves and brush as required till all the glue is remove and re soak. Once clean re assemble using a small amount of 5 minute place about a half inch from the tip of the key underside and center, work the weight back and forth the distribute the epoxy to cover the weight and coat the weight well of the key surface. let stand for a hour and re-assemble, epoxy
should cure completely in 24hours. Any questions email me here and I'll try to help you out. sky5031
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Re: Roland: Perishing Glue on Key Weights.

Postby srkendal » Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:37 am

Here is some info I found in another forum, and how I used it:

QUOTE HERE ***********
Sodium hydroxide (NaOH, lye) solution works great to dissolve the red glue without harming the plastic. Here's my technique.

WEAR SAFETY GOGGLES. Even dilute NaOH can permanently damage your eyes.

The sodium hydroxide I like to use is granular NaOH, which I've bought on eBay. If you can get Red Devil lye or some other pelletized NaOH at your hardware store, that will work too, but the granular NaOH dissolves faster.

In a plastic bucket, mix 80 grams NaOH with 2 liters of water until all the NaOH is dissolved. (The bucket will get warm.) Be careful not to splash any of the solution on yourself. If you do, wash it off promptly with a lot of water.

[For you chemistry types, this recipe makes a 1-molar (1 mole/L) solution of sodium hydroxide.]

Immerse the keys in the lye solution. You only need to soak the part with the glue on it, so don't worry if the narrow parts of the keys aren't bathed in the solution.

Leave the keys soaking in the solution for 18-24 hours. After this time, no traces of the red glue should remain, and the weights will simply fall out of the keys into the bucket.

Carefully pour the NaOH solution down the drain. Don't let the weights get poured down the drain too.

Rinse everything with a lot of water. Dry the weights as best you can. It's normal for a bit of rust-colored oxidation to form on the weights.

I like to let the keys soak another 24 hours in a bucket of soapy water. This bath helps eliminate the fishy odor left on the keys by the reaction of the lye solution with the red glue.

When everything is dry and clean, re-glue the weights into the keys. I have had great results using a popsicle stick to apply a dab of 5-minute epoxy to each key. Make sure the weights are properly centered.

The best way to get red glue off the metal chassis is to blast it with freeze spray, then, while the stuff is frozen hard and brittle, chip it off with a single-edged razor blade.

And that's it. Have fun.
END QUOTE ************

I used a bubbler (a simple type of pump) to keep the lye solution moving and wah the glue out of the keys. I simply took a scrap of 3/4" PVC pipe just long enough that it will sit in the bucket from one corner in the bottom to a point below but near the top of the liquid on the other side. I put a piece of aquarium air tubing though a hole in the side of the pipe near the bottom, and curved it toward the upper end. when air is pumped through the tube into the pipe, the bubbles rise through the pipe and pull the solution along, creating a general circulation in the bucket.

Image

I wanted to have plenty of solution to soak all the keys, so I mixed up the entire 1 lb container from the hardware store in the same concentration as above: 80 grams NaOH to 2 liters of water is the same concentration as 1 Lb NaOH to 6 quarts of water. Do your homework and read up on the web how to mix the lye and water, and how much heat is generated when mixed. This is a very powerful chemical!
Pay attention to all the safety warnings above, and enjoy your rehabilitated keyboard!
quote from this forum: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/electron ... -glue.html
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Re: Roland: Perishing Glue on Key Weights.

Postby srkendal » Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:52 pm

I don't know why the image won't appear above, but if you right click and "open image in a new tab" you can see a diagram of the bubbler setup.

Or, this link to the picture might work:
Bubbler Diagram
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Re: Roland: Perishing Glue on Key Weights.

Postby keyboardologist » Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:00 pm

Hello again!
I've done some work cause I'm on vacations and I have the time to.

First, I researched the keys before disassemble out of the 3 keyboard chassis. No common algorithm or sequence related with the key part numbers on the keys. CF, D, EB, G, A with any part numbers in any octave. None of funkyant's sequence in any of my keyboards and none of my 3 keyboards having something in common about that.

So I moved on and tested one white key with Sodium hydroxide (NaOH/caustic soda) solution with great success.
Please take all safety instructions and always wear thick plastic gloves.
NaOH solution does not affect most of the hard plastics at all, plastic bucket or pail are fine for use.

The weight fell out of the key about 3 hours after, and with some minutes later everything was clean, the key and the weight too. I washed out with fresh water and dry it. The key and the weight is superb.
I then put some clear silicone glue sticks using a hot gun like this http://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv163/cbickell/IMG_1444copy.jpg and glue the weight in. Excellent result!

Then I used a bigger bucket with 6L of water and 240gr of NaOH to put the 3x keyboard keys, over 220keys! I was putting about 50 keys every time in the solution. Most of the weights fell of after 4 to 5 hours but some of them had to be laid almost 24hours to come off, most of them were black keys. The solution in the bucket soon became really cloudy with a lot of red glue dirt floating like dust/powder inside. I used the same solution in the bucket for all of my keys.

I was always using a second bucket, with clean water which I was refreshing often, to put the cleaned keys and the weights and wash them out.
I left most of the keys for 24hours in the clean water but I did the mistake to also leave the weights in another bucket of water for many hours! Too bad...

1. So unfortunately, the weights of the white keys rusted :-(

2. Second problem is that, most of the keys have a little white dirt stuck on them which need some rubbing to come off. It is more evident on the black keys as it's white, but it's also in the same amount on the white keys. I may mix a new NaOH solution to do a test, cause the big bucket has dirt of glue inside now.

I have some photos of the procedure that I can post if someone wants to.

I would be grateful for some advice on removing the rust out of the weights!!!

And sorry for my bad English!
Greetings from Greece and have a nice summer ending!
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Re: Roland: VK-7 re-assembly

Postby Earl J » Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:40 am

Well I've repaired the sticking keys and replaced broken ones. The feel is very food. I however didn't take pictures of the steps when taking it apart. Those anyone have pictures of reassembling the keyboard? That would be a great help to me.


Thanks
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Re: Roland: Perishing Glue on Key Weights.

Postby FA13 » Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:41 pm

keyboardologist wrote:

First, I researched the keys before disassemble out of the 3 keyboard chassis. No common algorithm or sequence related with the key part numbers on the keys. CF, D, EB, G, A with any part numbers in any octave. None of funkyant's sequence in any of my keyboards and none of my 3 keyboards having something in common about that.



I have repaired a U-20, JV-80 and D-70 with the glue problem but I only wrote down the key sequence for the JV-80. I just reassembled the U-20 and D-70 without looking at the numbers behind the CF-xx, D-xx etc. and now I have incorrect spacing between the keys... It just doesn't look right..

I have compared the keys of my D-70 with the sequence mentioned earlier in the topic but no sigar.. the keynumbers on my D-70 are different.

I wonder if i'm doing something wrong because even Roland support says the keys are identical (eg CF-11, CF12, CF-13, CF-14.. no difference in dimensions)

Still, this might help someone:

Key order for (my) Roland JV-80:

cf12 2-3 d12 2-4 eb14 cf14 2-1 g11 2-2 a12 2-3 eb11
cf12 2-4 d12 2-1 eb14 cf14 2-2 g11 2-3 a12 2-4 eb11
cf11 2-1 d11 2-2 eb13 cf12 2-3 g12 2-4 a11 2-1 eb12
cf13 2-2 d12 2-3 eb11 cf11 2-4 g11 2-1 a12 2-2 eb14
cf14 2-3 d11 2-4 eb12 cf13 2-1 g12 2-2 a11 2-3 eb13 c12

Hope someone has a suggestion for my U-20 and D-70 without me having to trail and error the correct sequence :lol:

Weird that the normal home use Roland keyboards like the E-series have no partnumbers written on the keys.. As long as you put them in the C D E F G A B order.. It's allways good.. same goes for the black keys. And I have taken quite a few of those apart :)
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Re: Roland: Perishing Glue on Key Weights.

Postby Exalted Wombat » Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:12 pm

You don't really need a key-order list. When you line all the keys up, there's only one order that works, with the white ones fitting neatly around the blacks. Keys that look identical, ARE identical.
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Re: Roland: Perishing Glue on Key Weights.

Postby Exalted Wombat » Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:13 pm

Exalted Wombat wrote:You don't really need a key-order list. When you line all the keys up, there's only one order that works, with the white ones fitting neatly around the blacks. Keys that look identical, ARE identical.
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You don't have to write songs. The world doesn't want you to write songs. It would probably prefer it if you didn't. So write songs if you want to. Otherwise, dont. Go fishing instead.

Re: Roland: Perishing Glue on Key Weights.

Postby FA13 » Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:23 pm

Today I mailed Roland again and they too said that the numbers are just from the mold they come from and that it shouldn't make any difference... I'm will have another look this weekend but I'm 99% positive that it does make a difference in spacing when you change a CF-11 for a CF-14 for example.
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Re: Roland: Perishing Glue on Key Weights.

Postby tmpsa » Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:51 pm

Glue! That became my solution to the "pink goo" problem. The pink goo had not yet melted, so some glue will keep it in place forever. (Just what is that pink goo? A by-product from some obsure japanese fish product?)

Tip! When disassembling your Roland U-20 (or similar): keep track of the myriad of screws! There are a lot of them, and many different types. You will thank yourself when you try to assemble again.

This is a great thread! I got a lot of useful info!!

Disaster! After re-assembling the U-20, it went epileptic. The display showed garbage. No sound. :frown: There's no factory reset! After some googling I found a key sequence that restored it to semi-working condition; piano only. Roland have published a SYSEX file that has to sent to ther U-20 to set it up corrrectly. The only problem was that I failed to send it. Finally, I found the solution: MIDI-ox (the program I used) must be configured in a special way. Full details here:

Midi-ox Forum: Roland U-20 SysEx question [SOLVED]

Hope this helps.


Image
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Re: Roland: Perishing Glue on Key Weights.

Postby handyman » Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:17 am

I emailed Roland, asking how to remove the keyboards to fix the glue problem. I got a response but it was just a suggestion that I contact a dealer. Not much help.

I have an Atelier AT-90R and am looking for a detailed procedure to remove the keyboards, such as was posted in this thread about a different model. Would very much appreciate a step-by-step to avoid a serious screwup. TIA.
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Re: Roland: Perishing Glue on Key Weights.

Postby 254 » Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:27 am

I had The same problem with my VK-1000. Tried to clean the red glue but it was a disaster.
2 things I read in this forum I thought it would work.
1. Acetone - this thing ate my keys. It says on the container it my damage plastic but I went ah aid and put it on.
2. Boiling water. It worked! I was able to get the metal out. So I got greedy and put a bunch of them in a boiling water, they all came off. However, the keys got deformed:-( they all were bent.
I think I would have better off to clean as much as I could and cover it with hot glue.
So now I have a Roland Rhodes VK-1000 with no keys. So if anyone needs parts let me know. (Not the keys :-)) the LCD display works but it does not light up. The rest of the keyboard is fine. Except some of the buttons on the top right does not work.
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