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What are these bars / frames called

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What are these bars / frames called

Postby Guest » Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:18 am

Willie I was watching my favorite you tube presenter I came up with a great cool looking effect to make my star cloth up with. The problem I was having with the star cloth is that I have nothing to hang it up with. But if you look at the video at 3.25min you will see a star cloth held up by some kind of metal frame that they use at festivals. I though if I could get something like this but on a much smaller scale Bering in mind my star cloth will only be 5x7 feet and the venues I will be doing are small. But it would look really pro!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vd98n9THE6Q&t=66s
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Re: What are these bars / frames called

Postby The Korff » Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:24 am

If you really zoom in and enhance the video, you can see that the starcloth is in fact held up by lizard people (you can briefly see their secondary eyelids, or nictitating membranes, flash briefly at 4:07)...

But I think the answer you're looking for is stage trussing — it's used at festivals and a lot of venues to hold up lighting and sometimes to fly line arrays from. You can occasionally pick it up on the cheap(ish) from hire companies getting rid of old stock.

Cheers!

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Re: What are these bars / frames called

Postby MarkPAman » Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:05 am

Unless you have the infrastructure to hang truss, you'll want stands too.

Would something like https://www.thomann.de/gb/stairville_lb ... 3m_bla.htm
do what you want?
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Re: What are these bars / frames called

Postby Rob Kirkwood » Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:17 am

Another option (without the visible truss) would be something from the world of photography studios - designed to hold backgrounds for photo shoots...

e.g... https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_ss ... M8ZUWMKH2Q

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Re: What are these bars / frames called

Postby Guest » Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:10 am

I though that was a star clothes but looks like I am wrong! The lights coming through are reptilian beings peeking through the curtains

But that stage trusing looks verry expensive for some welded up scaffolding tube, but that link to the tommas music shop looks quite expensive for a bit of grid welded to a cloths rail

Wonder if I could make the tressing out of some metal grid though
We are only talking 7x5 feet, and only hangs a star cloth and maybe 2 lights
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Re: What are these bars / frames called

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:27 am

music master wrote:Wonder if I could make the tressing out of some metal grid though
We are only talking 7x5 feet, and only hangs a star cloth and maybe 2 lights

Just ensure that whatever you come up with is completely stable, even when someone trips over the cloth or tries to climb through it! ... And make sure you have very good Public Liability insurance, too! ;-)

H
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Re: What are these bars / frames called

Postby Sam Spoons » Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:57 am

music master wrote:I though that was a star clothes but looks like I am wrong! The lights coming through are reptilian beings peeking through the curtains

But that stage trusing looks verry expensive for some welded up scaffolding tube, but that link to the tommas music shop looks quite expensive for a bit of grid welded to a cloths rail

Wonder if I could make the tressing out of some metal grid though
We are only talking 7x5 feet, and only hangs a star cloth and maybe 2 lights

How much did your mic stand cost? What you need to hang your star cloth is equivalent to two of those (but a metre higher) plus a crossbar. Those Amazon ones at around £30 look a bargain to me, you'd spend at least that just buying the tube from B&Q.

But if you are going to hang stage lights off it as well they may not be strong enough.
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Re: What are these bars / frames called

Postby MarkPAman » Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:14 pm

They certainly can't safely hold lights.
To be honest, I'd question whether they're even strong enough for a star cloth. The fabric they are often supplied with is very thin and lightweight, and they don't hold that up very well. One false move will bend, or break them.
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Re: What are these bars / frames called

Postby Guest » Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:05 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:
music master wrote:Wonder if I could make the tressing out of some metal grid though
We are only talking 7x5 feet, and only hangs a star cloth and maybe 2 lights

Just ensure that whatever you come up with is completely stable, even when someone trips over the cloth or tries to climb through it! ... And make sure you have very good Public Liability insurance, too! ;-)

H
The only person who will be climbing through the cloth/ home made curtain will be me as I come out of my wardrobe/ home made dressing room, dressed up as the original artist for my next act / song as I surprise and engage the audiance

Don't those bars we talked about before look very similar to the frame of a construction crane and what hold the wires up on a railway line
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Re: What are these bars / frames called

Postby Sam Spoons » Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:09 pm

Do I recall correctly that you are recording to video? A link would be welcome :thumbup:

WRT Public Liability Insurance, if an audience is present then you really should have PLI. If you are alone and performing to camera for youtube or WHY then, obviously, you don't.
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Re: What are these bars / frames called

Postby Guest » Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:39 pm

I wonder how many of these artist have PA insurance?
https://www.lastminutemusicians.com/sea ... ester.html
As they don't seem to mention it in there adds
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Re: What are these bars / frames called

Postby MarkPAman » Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:59 pm

Why would they?

But you can bet if they're playing for a wedding or corporate do in a hotel, theatre or the like, they'll be asked to provide a copy.
Probably PAT certificates for all their electrical equipment, and maybe something that shows their backdrops etc are fire proofed.

Doesn't tend to happen in pubs or village halls much, but if the venue has an "events coordinator" or whatever they call themselves these days, then these things are on their check list - even if they often don't understand them.
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Re: What are these bars / frames called

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:16 pm

music master wrote:I wonder how many of these artist have PA insurance?

It's Public Liability Insurance (PLI), and all of them if they have any sense.

Most professional managed venues will insist on evidence of valid PLI, as Mark says, as well as evidence that any electrical equipment you're using is safe (usually by means of PAT testing records) -- again exactly as Mark says.

But even in more casual venues, you'd be completely barking mad not to have appropriate PLI cover in place. Accidents do happen and you only need something silly to go wrong and someone to get hurt -- even if only slightly, and before you know what's going on you'll have a team of very experienced lawyers working on a no-win-no-fee basis pursuing you for anything between thousands and millions in accident compensation. We live in a 'compensation culture' and a lot of people expect a whopping payout even if they were the ones that caused the accident! It happens every day! Trust me on this!

The cost to you, personally can be devastating and it's just not worth taking the risk when decent policies are very affordable. Better still, if you're a member of one of the professional bodies for artists, performers, sound engineers, and so on, you'll probably be able to get generous PLI cover included in the membership fee anyway.

For example, membership of Equity provides: https://www.equity.org.uk/about/member-benefits/

Equity wrote:Public Liability Insurance (PLI): Full Equity members automatically have up to £10 million in PLI. (Stage hypnotist members can get PLI but have to contribute to the premium, and there is subsidised top-up cover available for Fire Artists for a small extra payment.) Equity Student members are covered for up to £2 million in PLI. Equity members can print off a personalised Public Liability Insurance certificate by logging into the website.

The Musicians' Union offers much the same: https://www.musiciansunion.org.uk/Benefits as does the Institute of Professional Sound.

So the fact that PLI is included as standard to members of these bodies, it provides such enormous cover amounts, and (in the case of Equity) they specifically mention printing off personal certificates (to show to employers/venues), that should tell you just how important this is!

I made a passing comment about it in relation to your choice of backdrop stands, but I'm glad I did because it looks like this isn't something you've considered, and that could be disastrous!

I don't want to put you off your stage career, whatever that may be, but I do want to encourage you to take a sensible, professional approach to it.
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Re: What are these bars / frames called

Postby Mike Stranks » Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:32 pm

Spot on Sir Hugh! :thumbup:

... and for anyone else thinking, "Nah! Shan't bother... it'll be OK. And anyway any decent venue will have their own PL Insurance so I'll be covered..."

No you won't.

As soon as the insurers find out that the incident was caused by a third party - you - they'll (rightly) disown all liability and you personally will be liable.
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Re: What are these bars / frames called

Postby Guest » Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:50 pm

So there own insurance and music licence ect, won't cover 3rd part contractors! What even at festivels?
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Re: What are these bars / frames called

Postby Sam Spoons » Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:51 pm

The venue will have a music licence which covers performers at the venue, if the venue supply all the equipment their PLI will cover them against claims resulting from failings in their equipment/setup, at a festival the PA supplier will have their own PLI as will the lightning supplier, the stage supplier, the Genny supplier and, the organiser. If you bring your own backline you probably should have PLI in case your 200 watt HiWatt head falls off the two 4 x 12 cabs in your stack and injures a stagehand, if you are using the supplied backline then you are probably covered (unless you injure somebody in the mosh pit as a result of your stage diving antics or brain someone with a wildly swung, Daltrey style, SM58).

Basically you are responsible for your own equipment and any injury it might cause.
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Re: What are these bars / frames called

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:55 pm

Insurance can be arranged to cover anything for a price... And perhaps some festival organisers do have PLI insurance that covers the individual artists too... but that would be very rare in my (limited) experience, and almost certainly wouldn't provide cover for any of their personal equipment that causes damage or harm.

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Re: What are these bars / frames called

Postby Sam Spoons » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:08 pm

The premium for a years PLI for a typical pub band or soloist is usually less than a single gig fee (£80 or thereabouts) so anybody earning a reasonable amount from gigging can afford to pay it. It becomes a little more onerous if you play for free a lot as you should still have it and it then comes out of your own pocket but I sail boats and part of the insurance I have on them is third party liability insurance as required by my sailing clubs.
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Re: What are these bars / frames called

Postby Watchmaker » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:17 pm

If you become an initiate into the freemasons, they provide a free (secret) class in lizard training. It's a bit like service animals, but only for initiates. You have to enslave the lizard people on your own though there's a reasonably priced tutorial on that.

I'm told that the lizard who are too weak to hold star cloth become insurance salesmen.
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Re: What are these bars / frames called

Postby Mike Stranks » Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:20 pm

Sam Spoons wrote:The venue will have a music licence which covers performers at the venue, if the venue supply all the equipment their PLI will cover them against claims resulting from failings in their equipment/setup, at a festival the PA supplier will have their own PLI as will the lightning supplier, the stage supplier, the Genny supplier and, the organiser. If you bring your own backline you probably should have PLI in case your 200 watt HiWatt head falls off the two 4 x 12 cabs in your stack and injures a stagehand, if you are using the supplied backline then you are probably covered (unless you injure somebody in the mosh pit as a result of your stage diving antics or brain someone with a wildly swung, Daltrey style, SM58).

Basically you are responsible for your own equipment and any injury it might cause.

Yup!

You take ONE piece of kit - say a small mixer - and it can me proved that that was responsible for someone's injury then you're liable - however big and well-organised the event. Any decent event should make it clear in their contract with you what is the scope of their liability.

If it's an event organised by a local council and they contract with you directly to provide 'entertainment' you'll be showered with paper asking for proof of all sorts of things, as has already been mentioned.

I've supplied a diddy sound system for a few school fetes in my time. No PAT test certificate; no system. And I was doing them for free 'cos my kids went to the school!
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