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Black notes sharp or flat ?

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Re: Black notes sharp or flat ?

Postby blinddrew » Sat Mar 05, 2016 2:24 pm

Ariosto wrote:Thanks Eddy, you hit the nail on the head with your more detailed explanation. People who play instruments with Just Intonation can tune each note to each other, or if playing alone can tune each note as they think best, artistically.

The problem we have is that when we are suddenly playing with a piano (tempered tuning) we have to adjust differently so we are in tune with the piano (or any other fixed tuned instrument). So if I'm doing a recital with piano I need a couple of rehearsals or run throughs with the pianist to re-adjust my tuning. Life is never simple!

*** Notes this down in the Big Book of Excuses for future use. *** ;)
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Re: Black notes sharp or flat ?

Postby Eddy Deegan » Sat Mar 05, 2016 8:41 pm

This got me thinking. I wish that more electronic instruments (synthesizers being the obvious candidates here) would support just intonation natively. Hit a button, select the key you want, press 'confirm' and hey presto, the instrument is tuned accordingly. I know there are variations on that theme but even a default would be good to have.

Hmm... I'm going to double check and see if any of the boards in the man-cave actually have something along these lines. I know many of them do support some form of alternative tuning but I've not delved into the details and I don't recall seeing anything specifically pertaining to just intonation in any of the docs. I am embarrassed to admit it but I never thought to check. It would be a pleasant surprise to find, especially as some of my output is of a classical style.
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Re: Black notes sharp or flat ?

Postby Exalted Wombat » Sat Mar 05, 2016 9:02 pm

Eddy Deegan wrote:This got me thinking. I wish that more electronic instruments (synthesizers being the obvious candidates here) would support just intonation natively.

The old Yamaha SY range offerered this, and did't the even older TX81Z too? There's one in my shed I think. Wonder if it still works...
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Re: Black notes sharp or flat ?

Postby Eddy Deegan » Sat Mar 05, 2016 9:17 pm

Exalted Wombat wrote:
Eddy Deegan wrote:This got me thinking. I wish that more electronic instruments (synthesizers being the obvious candidates here) would support just intonation natively.

The old Yamaha SY range offerered this, and did't the even older TX81Z too? There's one in my shed I think. Wonder if it still works...
There are two SY85s and an SY77 within 8 feet of me. Seems a good place to start :)
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Re: Black notes sharp or flat ?

Postby Guest » Sat Mar 05, 2016 9:18 pm

First thing i thought of was TX81Z, weird thing is that 3rd sample on wiki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_intonation

where one follows the other, i struggle to hear that what i felt was a vast impovement, i really have to concentrate, y'know, it doesn't stick out as much as it first did, my brains filed it? got used to it in comparison and is trying to save memory by telling me there's no big diff? don't worry about it? whatever.

Def fancy a go though, maybe a soft synth can handle it or a programme for a soft synth?
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Re: Black notes sharp or flat ?

Postby Eddy Deegan » Sat Mar 05, 2016 9:37 pm

Eddy Deegan wrote:
Exalted Wombat wrote:
Eddy Deegan wrote:This got me thinking. I wish that more electronic instruments (synthesizers being the obvious candidates here) would support just intonation natively.


The old Yamaha SY range offerered this, and did't the even older TX81Z too? There's one in my shed I think. Wonder if it still works...

There are two SY85s and an SY77 within 8 feet of me. Seems a good place to start :)

I've drawn a blank on the SY85 - it appears to offer no alternative tuning whatsoever.

However, the Korg Kronos offers 16 user definable global scales, each with custom individual tuning of every single key on the keybed, along with a selection of per-timbre scales namely Pure Major, Pure Minor, Arabic, Pythagorus, Wirkmeister, Kirnberger, Slendro, Pelog and Stretch. No mention of Just Intonation per se, but from the look of it, creating a custom scale from online references for up to 16 keys would be easy using the user definable scales.

Gosh, that's rather nice. I have some experimenting to do....!
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Re: Black notes sharp or flat ?

Postby Exalted Wombat » Sat Mar 05, 2016 10:15 pm

Eddy Deegan wrote:

I've drawn a blank on the SY85 - it appears to offer no alternative tuning whatsoever.

I'm sure the SY77 and SY99 did. The SY85 was a rather different animal.

I remember the different tuning schemes being quite impressive on pure, electric piano type sounds. Less so on more complex ones. Perhaps because detuning was so much of the FM synthesis thing, the "richer" sounds lacked such a well-defined pitch centre?
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Re: Black notes sharp or flat ?

Postby Eddy Deegan » Sat Mar 05, 2016 10:44 pm

Exalted Wombat wrote:
Eddy Deegan wrote:

I've drawn a blank on the SY85 - it appears to offer no alternative tuning whatsoever.

I'm sure the SY77 and SY99 did. The SY85 was a rather different animal.

I remember the different tuning schemes being quite impressive on pure, electric piano type sounds. Less so on more complex ones. Perhaps because detuning was so much of the FM synthesis thing, the "richer" sounds lacked such a well-defined pitch centre?

I suspect you are correct. The SY85 was a different animal, but it's a fantastic piece of gear and can make noises that rival anything else I have in the man-cave. It got knocked for missing FM, but what it did, it did brilliantly and that's why I have two of them. I'd take it in preference to half a dozen keyboards that came later. I bought an SY77 in recent years because I'd wanted one so much when they came out, and for no other reason, but I much prefer the 85.

It can sound gargantuan, analogue, delicate and everything in between and IMHO has some of the best digital filters ever. A much overlooked gem, and worthy of a place in any studio.

Sorry, I digress :)
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Re: Black notes sharp or flat ?

Postby TheMiller » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:57 pm

Guest wrote:I've just raised a riff (to suit a vox stab ) up 1 semi from A minor to what? Am i now in A# minor or B flat minor? And what's the difference?

Shifting up a semitone is a really distant relationship (7 steps) - so in this case using the easier one helps.

However if there is a simple cycle-of-fifths modulation then one option is obvious.

e.g. if you are in Eb major and modulate to the dominant you are definitely in Bb major and not A# major

It is possible to wrap the cycle of fifths so that the enharmonics are equivalent, but it is easier to understand modulation if you have a long line thus...

Fb Cb Gb Db Ab Eb Bb F C G D A E B F# C# G# D# A# E# B#
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