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Black notes sharp or flat ?

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Re: Black notes sharp or flat ?

Postby damoore » Sun Feb 21, 2016 3:33 pm

Or, to put in more succinctly; "play outside"
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Re: Black notes sharp or flat ?

Postby Guest » Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:43 pm

In the tome I recommended above, Salzer does state there's no such thing as a key change, as it's a contradiction of terms, and he always mentions, modulation, not key change. That's if i'm getting the drift here.

The book addresses the failings of chord grammar (i believe chord grammar is what's generally taught) v's chord function/meaning, what this book teaches/reveals.

But as I've stated before, a lot of the book is beyond me so i might also be getting the wrong end of the USB.
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Re: Black notes sharp or flat ?

Postby Exalted Wombat » Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:56 pm

LdashD wrote:In the tome I recommended above, Salzer does state there's no such thing as a key change, as it's a contradiction of terms, and he always mentions, modulation, not key change. That's if i'm getting the drift here.

The book addresses the failings of chord grammar (i believe chord grammar is what's generally taught) v's chord function/meaning, what this book teaches/reveals.

But as I've stated before, a lot of the book is beyond me so i might also be getting the wrong end of the USB.

Any system that can't see going "up one" for the last verse as a Key Change, is probably overthinking the topic.
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Re: Black notes sharp or flat ?

Postby Guest » Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:27 pm

Exalted Wombat Sir, if I'm in C Maj, what key or choice of keys do I have to change to?
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Re: Black notes sharp or flat ?

Postby Exalted Wombat » Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:51 pm

LdashD wrote:Exalted Wombat Sir, if I'm in C Maj, what key or choice of keys do I have to change to?

Db, D, Eb, E, F, Gb, G, Ab, A, Bb and B major or minor. Oh, and C minor. Or you could move into the Dorian or any other mode, based on any note.

Really. Why not?
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Re: Black notes sharp or flat ?

Postby CS70 » Tue Feb 23, 2016 4:16 pm

Exalted Wombat wrote:There are degrees of modulation.

That's why I dislike much jazz 8-)
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Re: Black notes sharp or flat ?

Postby Guest » Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:30 pm

Exalted Wombat wrote:Db, D, Eb, E, F, Gb, G, Ab, A, Bb and B major or minor. Oh, and C minor. Or you could move into the Dorian or any other mode, based on any note. Really. Why not?


Bloody Nora, I 'ad a feeling you were gonna say that. If all are available is that then the 12 tone system. I can understand the C major/minor relationship, as the first riff i ever got on the keys went from C minor to C major in the chorus, and this gives a tremendous lift to the riff/song.

I thought western music lives whithin the struture of a I-V-I and any other intervals II, III, IV, VI and VII are merely passing or slowing the inevitable resolve to the root, thus completing the nescessry harmonic function.

I thought by leaping and stepping, usually taking the shortest route, through I-II-III-VI-V-VI-VII, this is what creates melodic intervals, if every key/note is then available to me what happens to the I through VII.

I mean, i believe that intervals create a certain type of music by bypassing certain notes, if every note is available that must be the 12 tone system?

So in C major (triads only) I have at my disposal Cmj Dm Em Fmj Gmj Am & Bdim if i changed key to Db, or any others mentioned are the equivalent triads/intervals also at my disposal, and can i change to several keys in one composition and still have the same triad intervals.
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Re: Black notes sharp or flat ?

Postby Exalted Wombat » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:19 am

LdashD wrote:If all are available is that then the 12 tone system.

No, the 12-tone system is something quite different, that doesn't deal in keys and triads at all. It was an early 20th century reaction against tonal music. Very contrived, and no use at all to you. I suggest you forget about it for now.

What I'm telling you isn't way-out or ultra-modernist at all. Bach, Beethoven, Mozart (not to mention The Beatles) didn't restrict themselves to diatonic triads. Only the simplest folk music stays strictly in one mode. You can, quite literally, use any possible chord in a piece in C major.
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Re: Black notes sharp or flat ?

Postby Guest » Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:38 pm

Exalted one, thanks for bearing wiv me man. I guess when i stray from my norm, it starts to sound like jazz or other genres I'm not too fond of, sorta. And to be honest I'd written lots of tunes before i read about I-V-I, stepping & leaping etc, and my stuff is no better for having this info, i was a bit peeved at first, then realised, when analysing my riffs, that i was instinctively adhereing to the rules of harmony anyway.


Could you tell me how to achieve this wondrous kind of harmony of the Bulgarian Choirs, what are the key/intervals or vertical harmony used, even an approximation would be helpful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVqrW-fPOQ0
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Re: Black notes sharp or flat ?

Postby Exalted Wombat » Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:22 am

A guy called Peter Lyondev is credited as the arranger/composer. Some of his work is available online. Here's one you could look at:

http://www.stantons.com/scores/20-96750.pdf

Or better still transcribe it yourself from the YouTube performance. That's a great way to get really in to how the music's put together.
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Re: Black notes sharp or flat ?

Postby Guest » Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:54 am

Exalted Wombat wrote:Or better still transcribe it yourself from the YouTube performance. That's a great way to get really in to how the music's put together.

Exalted one, you're 'aving a larf ain't ya, like Lennon & McCartney et al I can't read or write music, jus' use my ears, still it seems to be basically triads, right up my "one-way" street, so where there's a will there's a er, Shakespeare, or words to that effect, thanks for the link def gonna try and make sense of it one way or the other.

muchas gracias amigo
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Re: Black notes sharp or flat ?

Postby Exalted Wombat » Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:59 am

If you want to make YOUR music, instinct may suffice. If you want to analyse and copy other music, either join a group that plays it and let it soak in, or acquire the tools of a musician's trade. I'm sure it's not too late.
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Re: Black notes sharp or flat ?

Postby Guest » Thu Feb 25, 2016 3:14 pm

Hey Exalted one, prob wiv me is i'm self taught in everything i do, guitar, keys, filming and editing videos, stop frame animation and so on, i've always strived to improve my ability in all these things and more and generally do so by recognising, then learning from my mistakes, or occasionally when others have pointed out the error of my ways. In a similar vein I feel that musicians who have been taught don't ness make good writers, as musicianship is a trade, composing is an art and rightly or wrongly i consider myself an aesthete and this i believe is my particular strength.

Academic learning jus' goes in one ear an' out t'other no matter 'ow 'ard i try, time permitting i will try to discover what makes this wonderful music so unique, it's just there's still so much i want/need to learn and there's only so much time in the day and anything that takes me away from creating new stuff takes a back seat until i need a break from creativity.

Horses for courses, or you cain't teach an ol' dog new tricks, but in my case, this ol' dog can teach 'imself, to a degree anyway.

thanks man
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Re: Black notes sharp or flat ?

Postby Exalted Wombat » Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:04 pm

LdashD wrote:Hey Exalted one, prob wiv me is i'm self taught in everything i do, guitar, keys, filming and editing videos, stop frame animation and so on, i've always strived to improve my ability in all these things and more and generally do so by recognising, then learning from my mistakes, or occasionally when others have pointed out the error of my ways. In a similar vein I feel that musicians who have been taught don't ness make good writers, as musicianship is a trade, composing is an art and rightly or wrongly i consider myself an aesthete and this i believe is my particular strength.

Academic learning jus' goes in one ear an' out t'other no matter 'ow 'ard i try, time permitting i will try to discover what makes this wonderful music so unique, it's just there's still so much i want/need to learn and there's only so much time in the day and anything that takes me away from creating new stuff takes a back seat until i need a break from creativity.

Horses for courses, or you cain't teach an ol' dog new tricks, but in my case, this ol' dog can teach 'imself, to a degree anyway.

thanks man

Ah well. If you refuse to get smart, you'll just have to rely on getting lucky.
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Re: Black notes sharp or flat ?

Postby Airfix » Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:49 pm

The well temperament is a compromise - there are no black notes. just intonation is so lovely - try it and see
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Re: Black notes sharp or flat ?

Postby Guest » Wed Mar 02, 2016 2:34 pm

Airfix wrote:The well temperament is a compromise - there are no black notes. just intonation is so lovely - try it and see

Thanks for the fix Air, was aware of it but had never heard comparisons,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_intonation

WOW, sounds so perfectly beautifully in tune, as nature intended I believe, def gonna give it a whirl, so thanks for the reminder bruvver.

Now, where's me bleedin' pitch 'ammer, er fork.
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Re: Black notes sharp or flat ?

Postby Ariosto » Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:26 pm

As a string player in theory. if I played a three octave scale in C sharp major, and then followed with D flat major, there should be a slight difference. However, using the same fingering it would sound exactly the same, and audibly no one could tell the difference. However, if playing in an ensemble, band, orchestra or whatever, C sharp major and D flat major might well have subtle differences in pitch as you would be tuning to other instruments, some of which may be tuned to equal temperament (like a piano) or even other wind instruments with less options for bending notes.

PS If you bend too many notes you end up staying behind to straighten them out after the session, concert, rehearsal or whatever is over ...
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Re: Black notes sharp or flat ?

Postby Exalted Wombat » Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:32 pm

Ariosto wrote:As a string player in theory. if I played a three octave scale in C sharp major, and then followed with D flat major, there should be a slight difference. However, using the same fingering it would sound exactly the same, and audibly no one could tell the difference.

So what ARE you saying? Is there a difference or isn't there?
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Re: Black notes sharp or flat ?

Postby Eddy Deegan » Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:49 am

Exalted Wombat wrote:
Ariosto wrote:As a string player in theory. if I played a three octave scale in C sharp major, and then followed with D flat major, there should be a slight difference. However, using the same fingering it would sound exactly the same, and audibly no one could tell the difference.


So what ARE you saying? Is there a difference or isn't there?

It depends on the tuning of, and in some cases also the manner in which you play, the instrument you play it on.

A piano for example is usually tuned with 'Well Temperament' (which is the method of tuning most people in the Western world use when tuning a piano), and in that case each note is at a fixed pitch such that C# and Db are identical, as are the intervals in their respective scales relative to each other, so in that case they are the same.

A fretted string instrument would (assuming the strings are tuned to intervals matching the equivalents in a Well Tempered piano) also sound the same (assuming no shenanigans to bypass the tuning imposed by the frets).

A fretless instrument however, could be played with a technique (or, for that matter a piano could be tuned to a specific scale) whereby C# and Db are slightly different (and also the intervals between each successive note of their scales). In this case, the piano would have to be tuned such that the black note immediately above middle C was either a C# or a Db.

In this case, once the piano is tuned to that specific key, (google 'Just Intonation') there are a very limited range of keys you can play anything in with it sounding in tune, but those that it does work with sound better than what we are used to (although these days some folks might be so exposed to Well Temperament that they might take a while to get used to any alternative in order to fully appreciate that alternative).

This is unusual in 'popular music' but not unheard of. Wendy Carlos used specific tunings in Switched on Bach for example.

However, it's a lot of work to tune a piano, so Well Temperament is usually used as it's an 'averaging out' of everything, at the expense of 'perfection' in terms of note intervals. Bach wrote 'Well Tempered Clavier' to demonstrate that once tuned using Well Temperament, a piano could be used to play a suite of pieces (specifically a couple of sets of Preludes and Fugues) in every major and minor key without having to retune it between each pair.

There's math involved - I used to be more up to speed on it all than I am these days, but if you google 'Just Intonation', 'Equal Temperament' and 'Well Temperament' you'll discover a veritable rabbit hole of theory which I will admit freely I don't really miss that much :)

Edit: Which isn't to say I don't appreciate the output of those who do use Just Intonation. It is indeed a thing of exceptional loveliness to the ear.
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Re: Black notes sharp or flat ?

Postby Ariosto » Sat Mar 05, 2016 11:47 am

Thanks Eddy, you hit the nail on the head with your more detailed explanation. People who play instruments with Just Intonation can tune each note to each other, or if playing alone can tune each note as they think best, artistically.

The problem we have is that when we are suddenly playing with a piano (tempered tuning) we have to adjust differently so we are in tune with the piano (or any other fixed tuned instrument). So if I'm doing a recital with piano I need a couple of rehearsals or run throughs with the pianist to re-adjust my tuning. Life is never simple!
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