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chorus with huge drums like sia and hurts (thought)

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chorus with huge drums like sia and hurts (thought)

Postby Elgun Ataxanli » Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:17 am

hi to all
i am producing smth like topic mentioned
is there any one can talk about making chorus arrangement on such kind of pop and other genres.
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Re: chorus with huge drums like sia and hurts (thought)

Postby blinddrew » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:34 am

Hi Elgun,
Are you asking about writing the chorus parts or mixing/producing them?
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Re: chorus with huge drums like sia and hurts (thought)

Postby The Elf » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:42 am

The first guide to making something sound big is to juxtapose it with something that sounds small. In order for a chorus to sound bigger than the verse, the verse needs to be 'smaller'. The mistake I see in many mixes is that everything has been pushed to the limit in the verse, leaving the chorus with nowhere to go. Also consider leaving some headroom for later choruses - no point having the needles hitting the end-stop until the biggest part of the song.

Don't soak up all your headroom with low end; 'loudness' has as much to do with tonality as it has absolute level. A lot of the sense of loudness and power will come from the upper mids. Make sure that you're using all parts of the audio spectrum to create the sense of power, without anything dominating to the point that it drowns other important signals (e.g. the vocal) out. Of course, sometimes having the vocal fight to be heard can be part of creating the illusion of loudness...

Add parts in the chorus, open up delays to get parts bouncing off the 'back wall' of the mix, double up the tempo of percussion, sequences, basses... Think it through - if this were a real band, what would *they* do? Speed up a little, increase velocities to open up filters, add distortion... and take the opposite approach for the verse. It's really all about the excitement of the arrangement.

All of the above and more. Live in the moment of the mix, but reference it to what has come before and what will come after.

Hope something here helps.
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Re: chorus with huge drums like sia and hurts (thought)

Postby BJG145 » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:53 am

The Elf wrote:The first guide to making something sound big is to juxtapose it with something that sounds small. In order for a chorus to sound bigger than the verse, the verse needs to be 'smaller'. The mistake I see in many mixes is that everything has been pushed to the limit in the verse, leaving the chorus with nowhere to go. Also consider leaving some headroom for later choruses - no point having the needles hitting the end-stop until the biggest part of the song.

Don't soak up all your headroom with low end; 'loudness' has as much to do with tonality as it has absolute level. A lot of the sense of loudness and power will come from the upper mids. Make sure that you're using all parts of the audio spectrum to create the sense of power, without anything dominating to the point that it drowns other important signals (e.g. the vocal) out. Of course, sometimes having the vocal fight to be heard can be part of creating the illusion of loudness...

Add parts in the chorus, open up delays to get parts bouncing off the 'back wall' of the mix, double up the tempo of percussion, sequences, basses... Think it through - if this were a real band, what would *they* do? Speed up a little, increase velocities to open up filters, add distortion... and take the opposite approach for the verse. It's really all about the excitement of the arrangement.

All of the above and more. Live in the moment of the mix, but reference it to what has come before and what will come after.

Hope something here helps.

Great post Elf!
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Re: chorus with huge drums like sia and hurts (thought)

Postby Elgun Ataxanli » Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:10 am

soo much thanks dear brothers!!!
i really noticed some points quickly after reading your essay :D

and there is some startpoints for arrangement in your reply)) brilliant tips really)
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Re: chorus with huge drums like sia and hurts (thought)

Postby Elgun Ataxanli » Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:16 am

blinddrew wrote:Hi Elgun,
Are you asking about writing the chorus parts or mixing/producing them?

it is good idea seperate those 2 categories, and also it is good idea corporate them. - i got that from your question :D inspirational.

so i generally asked, i think i need to mix them, cuz i got big saw pads.
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Re: chorus with huge drums like sia and hurts (thought)

Postby Elgun Ataxanli » Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:16 am

The Elf wrote:The first guide to making something sound big is to juxtapose it with something that sounds small. In order for a chorus to sound bigger than the verse, the verse needs to be 'smaller'. The mistake I see in many mixes is that everything has been pushed to the limit in the verse, leaving the chorus with nowhere to go. Also consider leaving some headroom for later choruses - no point having the needles hitting the end-stop until the biggest part of the song.

Don't soak up all your headroom with low end; 'loudness' has as much to do with tonality as it has absolute level. A lot of the sense of loudness and power will come from the upper mids. Make sure that you're using all parts of the audio spectrum to create the sense of power, without anything dominating to the point that it drowns other important signals (e.g. the vocal) out. Of course, sometimes having the vocal fight to be heard can be part of creating the illusion of loudness...

Add parts in the chorus, open up delays to get parts bouncing off the 'back wall' of the mix, double up the tempo of percussion, sequences, basses... Think it through - if this were a real band, what would *they* do? Speed up a little, increase velocities to open up filters, add distortion... and take the opposite approach for the verse. It's really all about the excitement of the arrangement.

All of the above and more. Live in the moment of the mix, but reference it to what has come before and what will come after.

Hope something here helps.

awesome))
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Re: chorus with huge drums like sia and hurts (thought)

Postby ReedySteadyGo » Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:45 am

Great post Elf, but please explain this bit.

The Elf wrote:Add parts in the chorus, open up delays to get parts bouncing off the 'back wall' of the mix...


Thanks.
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Re: chorus with huge drums like sia and hurts (thought)

Postby The Elf » Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:54 am

ReedySteadyGo wrote:
The Elf wrote:Add parts in the chorus, open up delays to get parts bouncing off the 'back wall' of the mix...
Great post Elf, but please explain this bit.
The longest delay/reverb (and the longest pre-delay assigned to the reverb) will set the depth of the mix - my 'back wall'. When the mix is building, then it often pays to push the sends to these longer delays/reverbs to create the feeling that more sound is reaching this 'back wall', since that suggests that things must be getting louder.

Take a listen to Black Sabbath's 'Neon Knights' for a very obvious example of where the vocal delay is responsible for much of the sense of distance and power of the entire mix (and is increased in strategic places to further enhance the effect):
https://youtu.be/YF3jeAPGhrY
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Re: chorus with huge drums like sia and hurts (thought)

Postby ReedySteadyGo » Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:36 am

The Elf wrote:Take a listen to Black Sabbath's 'Neon Knights' for a very obvious example of where the vocal delay is responsible for much of the sense of distance and power of the entire mix (and is increased in strategic places to further enhance the effect):
https://youtu.be/YF3jeAPGhrY

Interesting. I fully agree with the principle.

However boosting delay/reverb on lead vocals seems to work in one of 2 ways. If vocals are forward boosting reverb/delay opens them up but also emphasises them. If vocals are set back into the mix sometimes boosting reverb/delay seems to push them further back . In that example Ozzy sounds as though he has taken 2 steps back into the band at times. I even tried several different sources and both speakers/headphones to make sure there wasn't some other influence here.

Ian.
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Re: chorus with huge drums like sia and hurts (thought)

Postby Wonks » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:29 pm

ReedySteadyGo wrote:In that example Ronnie James Dio sounds as though he has taken 2 steps back into the band at times.

FTFY.
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Re: chorus with huge drums like sia and hurts (thought)

Postby The Elf » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:35 pm

ReedySteadyGo wrote:However boosting delay/reverb on lead vocals seems to work in one of 2 ways. If vocals are forward boosting reverb/delay opens them up but also emphasises them. If vocals are set back into the mix sometimes boosting reverb/delay seems to push them further back.
There are two sides to any mix decision.

I can use a single delay/reverb and use it to push a sound back into the mix, or pull it forward, all depending on how I choose to work with it and adjust other elements.

As I said above, sometimes making the vocal seem to be fighting to be heard can also make the rest of the mix sound 'louder'.

The mechanics of it aside, this is all about production decisions.
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Re: chorus with huge drums like sia and hurts (thought)

Postby The Elf » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:36 pm

Wonks wrote:
ReedySteadyGo wrote:In that example Ronnie James Dio sounds as though he has taken 2 steps back into the band at times.
My favourite Sabbath vocalist - in fact, one of my favourite vocalists of all time!
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Re: chorus with huge drums like sia and hurts (thought)

Postby ReedySteadyGo » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Wow. Didn't realise Ozzy left that early.
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Re: chorus with huge drums like sia and hurts (thought)

Postby Wonks » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:51 pm

Yes, the first time. Less 'left', than was 'incapable of performing at that time' due to drink and drugs. Sabbath had to find a new singer to survive.
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