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In search of a new music.

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Re: In search of a new music.

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:24 pm
by Parodites
Since I equally enjoy baroque, classical, romantic, and jazz, it was always an aspiration of mine to fuse these genres, to create a new genre that takes what I value from all of them and leaves out what I do not.

I would like to summarize a few features of this new genre I consider my works to be the first representatives of:

The first:

It is not atonal but it is certainly beyond tonality as conventionally understood in that definite harmonic relationships are based on Lydian-chromatic symmetry, which I noted a few posts back, instead of tonic resolutions as in functional harmony, modes as in the music of the impressionists mainly, or something like interval classes for the theoretician like Hindemith, though it is from him that I gained inspiration for this feature.

The second:

The melodies and themes have a characteristic: they are formulated with much greater periodicity than normal, that is, the underlying phrases are extremely long, and not only that, but melodies are conceived in two directions, simultaneously backward and forward across the temporal continuum. This is one of the Jazz elements of my writing, specifically borrowed from the M-base doctrines. Simply finding a way to increase the scope of the temporal field upon which melodies are constructed, allows an entirely new universe of possible melodies to be discovered. This requires that the composer/listener becomes well practiced in thinking in two directions at once, at least 2-3 tones backward and forward in time; the simple retention of tones in short-term memory is not sufficient to intuit the definite structures through the musical sense, and without this skill, it is difficult to do more than capture the form at the level of purely cognitive apprehension.

The third:

The third feature is the existence of a new harmonic entity I use.

To elaborate on what I said here:

" Hindemith wanted to go beyond tonality but, like me, he had strong philosophic contention with the atonal serial composers and the manner in which they "went beyond" tonality, for they did so seemingly illegitimately. Hindemith wished to establish a new theory of music that legitimately transcended the limitations of the diatonic functions, that is, a theory of music that didn't analyze chords and harmony in terms of key centers and their relationships. Hindemith's solution was to use a mathematical procedure to break all the chords and scales down to their fundamental intervals, pure intervals which he then classified in terms of their apparent harmony and discord. Because he classified all the possible intervals based on their consonance and dissonance, he could then inter-relate chords into progressions that generated tension and release (musicality) purely on the basis of which intervals they were constructed from, without any reliance on the conventional diatonic system of keys. But his classification of harmony and discord for the intervals is very arbitrary, as is the choice to perform a mathematical reduction down to the level of the interval itself in order to arrive at an analytic basis. I wish to do the same, that is, arrive at an alternative theory to both serial composition and conventional tonality, but I have used this idea of symmetry instead of something along the lines of Hindemith's interval classes, for symmetry represents an objective non-arbitrary basis of comparison and analysis, and is consequently far more robust. Instead of basing the theory of harmony on either interval classes or on the key centers and resolution to their central tonics, the relationship between chords is defined in my system in terms of a grand-scale idea of musical symmetry. The most important symmetrical relationship is found in the Overtone-Undertone series, but the most important symmetry for the practical application to composition and musical analysis is found in the Lydian scale, for, when it is combined with its own symmetrical mirror, the twelve notes of the total chromatic is produced- it is this curious phenomenon which initially clued me in to the idea of a grand musical symmetry invisibly organizing the various scales, a kind of super-scale. Then each possible chord (or scale, or mode, etc.) can similarly be mirrored in terms of tonal gravity and combined with its symmetrical counterpart in the same manner that the Lydian scale was combined with its mirror in order to create the chromatic scale, etc. Essentially, the harmonic relationships are defined in terms of these symmetrical patterns created by combining things with their own mirrors, taking all the resulting notes together and correcting for duplications in each case- these note collections are my replacement for "scales". A corollary of the new theory is: in a normal scale the tone that generates the structure of the scale is itself the tonic or central note that the others resolve to in order to release tension, that is the whole idea of returning to the root, but, within the framework of this symmetrical idea, scales no longer function this way; the note that generates one of these symmetrical relationships (Like Lydian combined with its own mirror to produce the chromatic scale) of notes (the new version of a "scale") is different than the note that they resolve to, the "tonic." Now chords can be related not in terms of diatonic functions, keys, tonics and key centers, but purely in terms of this objective musical symmetry... "

Romanticism ended with the incorporation of the thirteenth chord. It has six unique tones and functions as an extended or poly-chord made out of stacked triads. Because it has six tones, it has incredible versatility, and there are innumerable shapes that can be made with it. But from this we go straight into atonal music. The thirteenth chord is the maximal diatonic extension and the remaining six notes that would create the total chromatic are adopted in atonal music through a mathematical system that guarantees no one pitch gets tonal priority, ie. serialism, and just sort of added to the thirteenth randomly.

A step was missed, or more properly, a wrong direction was taken. The fifteenth chord was missed. This is that new harmonic entity.

Simply adding the other remaining notes of the total chromatic to a thirteenth chord randomly like serial atonal music does, creates chords that just sound like banging on a piano, like the "mother-chord", which have no impressionistic quality. A fifteenth chord is not produced this way- what I am calling a fifteenth chord because it is a new structure that has no name in any theory now.

Combining the seven notes of the Lydian mode with its own negative harmonization (its tonal mirror) yields a 12 tone chromatic scale, a full circle of fifths progression. 5 extra notes are incorporated into the Lydian's seven note scale, creating the new Lydian-chromatic superscale. I went over this in the note I am elaborating on now.

You can compress the Lydian notes to form a thirteenth chord. Then you can use the other five chromatic notes left over in the Lydian-chromatic scale to produce a major third interval, and then superimpose that major third over the compressed thirteenth chord. The resulting chord will have 8 unique tones (two more than Romanticism's thirteenth) that can be divided into two stacked tetrads as a polychord. You can remove the fifth degree from one or both of those tetrads to reduce the chord to seven or six unique tones. The chromatic notes are effectively augmenting one of the tetrads, a similar feat to the impressionists first discovering how to freely move by parallel ninths. The two tetrads embody a new harmonic alliance between dominant and major seventh chords that reflects the underlying symmetry of the tonal mirroring itself, and the directional bent of the circle of fifths which lends tonal gravity to a progression causing it to sound major or takes it away to make it sound minor.

This creates a completely new harmonic entity. A fifteenth chord, with even more potential than the thirteenth. In fact, unlimited potential, as it grants use of the total chromatic; it Just depends which major third you superimpose over the Lydian thirteenth that you produce out of the leftover 5 chromatic notes in the Lydian-chromatic scale.

The fourth:

Large scale structures are developed through the exploration of a relationship between the individual musical cell and the piece as a whole. The development sections are almost entirely done away with and musical development takes place as a kind of conversation between individual cell and the macroscopic array of multiple cells defining a melody or theme. (Hence the apparent stream of endless information and constant variation flowing from one melody to the next.)


Eddy, don't be distracted by this post, which has brought this thread to page two: I would like to hear what you thought of those specific sequences I pointed out in my last post! Sorry about falling asleep last night, I would have followed up with you sooner.

Re: In search of a new music.

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:08 pm
by Eddy Deegan
Parodites wrote:Eddy, don't be distracted by this post, which has brought this thread to page two: I would like to hear what you thought of those specific sequences I pointed out in my last post! Sorry about falling asleep last night, I would have followed up with you sooner.

No worries - I had to go to bed as well. I'm working at the moment but later this evening I will take a look at the material you mentioned.

Re: In search of a new music.

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:13 pm
by Parodites
Also the notes I made kind of address your wondering about the elusive quality I have and trying to find the bridge that connects my work to the past now that I think of it. I think that Romanticism gave way to Impressionism and then atonal serialism because the 13th chord was the maximal extension of the diatonic system and so the remaining tones of the total chromatic could not be logically integrated at that point, and essentially, I have determined that there is a harmonic structure beyond the 13th that, while non-diatonic, is not atonal. So I used it to step back into that era and then go in another direction toward something beyond normal tonality that is very different than serial composition, which I despise and conceive as even philosophically pernicious.

Re: In search of a new music.

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:10 am
by Eddy Deegan
Parodites wrote: ... o-9-mov1-4

It is from minute 33:30 to minute 35:57, it ends on this really powerful cadence (35:43---35:57) that had been stuck in my head. Powerful, no?

I can discern a couple of clear themes in this section that I like very much. I also like the allegro arpeggio-like runs (roundabout 35:20) and the chord sequence commencing at 35:43.

I can understand you would wish to develop this into a work of its own.

Parodites wrote: ... verter-com

57:50----59:20 minutes

My personal favourite part of this section is the 'bouncy' part commencing at approximately 58:37, which you hark back to at 59:25 or so.

I am curious as to your essential intentions with your work. Is it for self-fulfillment, purely as a vehicle to explore a technical approach to composition or to reach out and connect to other people?

Parodites wrote:Regardless of what music you create, old or new, complex or simple, etc.- some will like it and some will not. Beauty is subjective and in some sense, meaningless. It is incommunicable why one person would like something and another does not.

Well said. I completely agree :thumbup:

Parodites wrote:However, the technical aspects of its construction are communicable, it is only for that reason that I usually choose to focus on them.

That's interesting - this suggests to me that you value the technical aspects more than a consideration for the comfort of your audience. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that of course, though it does not come without some resistance from (I would say most of) that audience. Equally, many people resist alternative tunings, which is a shame, but of course for many generations now the Western world has been trained from birth to consider the 12-semitone octave as 'correct' (which it patently both is, and is not!)

As an observation, it seems you do not focus much on timbre or dynamics (in terms of 'loudness', so to speak). Is that intentional?

Re: In search of a new music.

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:57 am
by Parodites
You asked if my goal is self-fulfillment or connected with people, and I suppose- neither. Above all else, my goal is to escape all that influenced me and discover a new field of potential, both for harmonic/melodic possibility as well as the more technical and theoretical aspects of music. And this desire to advance music stems from simply, a love for music. Having devoted 12 hours of my life to music, every day, for the last 15 years, obviously speaks to a commanding love for it, though some might call it obsession.

Timbre and dynamics are not a major concern at the moment, as all the recordings I have provided are preliminary; I Intend to replace them with recordings using performers. Right now they are made only with myself and vsts for what I cannot physically execute.

Re: In search of a new music.

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:57 pm
by Parodites
Also, something else that might interest you; I don't often use fugal techniques in isolation, but these are two studies based on a fugal excerpt from my fifth Symphony that are both quite short: ... -interlude ... lude-no-31

Seems bittersweet to me in terms of emotions.

Also, a much darker composition (my nature has a bent for brighter, not necessarily happy, emotions) : ... no-2-rev-7

From 8:20---9:25 there's several nice, brighter jazzy cadenzas

11:05-13:25, some much darker more Romantic cadenzas ending with some quartal harmonies.

Then at 15:15, a very sad sounding sequence.

Re: In search of a new music.

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:41 pm
by Parodites ... de-orpheus

I also wanted to go over the dramatic structure of this one ^ (Choosing not to adhere to sonata-allegro formalism, I often make use of mythological and literary structures when organizing my music)

The story of Orpheus rescuing Eurydice from the underworld afforded the plan of this piece's structure. [It is an extreme reduction of my Orpheus symphony which is nearly two hours long.]

The beginning starts with some extremely dense/symphonic/rich harmonies superimposing bimodal major and minor scales to get a dark, mysterious texture, embedded in a few dramatic descending patterns. The harmonies are intended to capture the mysterious quality of Orpheus himself, and the descending theme represents his actual descent into Hades in search for the ghost of Eurydice. It can even be seen visually for this section:

Then at 1:10, a Romantic, sensuous theme begins that is very different than the preceding, which might appear unconnected. But no, it is perfectly connected, following the Orpheus myth. This theme is supposed to represent Orpheus locating his beloved Eurydice in Hades after making his descent. Near its end, this theme takes a heroic/dramatic twist- ie. at 1:55, and it lasts until 4:40, a section which represents Orpheus challenging the gods of the underworld to allow him to bring the ghost of Eurydice back to the world of the living.

At 4:40, a section begins that is modeled on the first, but this time, it is ascending, representing Orpheus making the climb back to the living world with Eurydice.

I won't say more (I think there is a lot of fun and intellectual sport that can be had in the listener matching up the sequence of events in the myth to that in the composition him/herself) except- Orpheus' tragic loss of Eurydice during their escape occurs at the moment:

Re: In search of a new music.

PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:45 am
by Eddy Deegan
Thank you for the links Joseph. I'm struggling a bit for time at the moment as I have some work commitments to deliver that we underestimated the effort for, but I will give your last couple of posts some attention over the weekend, if not before.

Re: In search of a new music.

PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:25 am
by Eddy Deegan
(To any passing readers - this conversation carried on in forum private messages.)

Re: In search of a new music.

PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:05 am
by OneWorld
resistorman wrote:
Music works best when there is tension and release, no matter its form... what I heard was pretty much all tension. Just something you may want to think about.

The constant swirl of sustaining pad sounds tracking the piano-like sound is not registering to me as symphonic at all, if that is the intent. It just sounds muddy and wearing on the ear.

I agree. I am minded of those words of Beethoven or it might have been Mozart when asked about the completion of a compositon and they said the first thing they do is go back and ask themselves "What can I take out?" for me, a piece of music has to have a unique element that makes it memorable, can I whistle it back to myself - even something as grandiose as 'Ode to Joy', had a tune to it. Too much on the periphery throttles the elements within the music

Re: In search of a new music.

PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:22 pm
by Parodites
The thing is, is I listen to my own music for pleasure and I do test my music by making sure I can hum it to myself and single out the melodic line.

Just, from what I was listening to today, ... verter-com

The part from 57:50 to exactly the one hour mark, about a 3-4 minute long section, which I listened to on repeat for about an hour earlier.
Or the little cadenza from this same composition at 34:28-35:25, I find unutterably beautiful.
I mean- can you really not identify the melodic lines there? I am curious. If you cannot, then there appears to be a profound difference in our understanding of sound at the most basic level.

And this entire movement also occupied me today:

Re: In search of a new music.

PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:49 pm
by CS70
Eddy Deegan wrote:
You cannot quantify, nor produce a blueprint for, subjectivity.

Very interesting! I think music is "good" or not subjectively depending on the feelings it evokes. So far, pretty obvious of course.

But it brings us to look at what is evoking feelings in people and why.

Imho the first thing is that a subject X must be "open" to a certain degree to actually have any feeling evoked. Now that's not so easy in our society: after 30-ish or so, people become generally so stressed and taken by menial daily life that they often don't have space for their own well being, relationships, development etc.. there's little space for casual focus on whatever piece of music.. Mozart himself could be writing a sonata, and many of these people wouldn't even notice.

So that leaves with relatively un-stressed people - towards the younger or the post-family/children/career - retired, perhaps? Or well grown up.

Obviously there's lots of individual exception - well-adapted people in their 30, 40s and 50s who are open to different emotional experiences (and musicians and artists tend perhaps to be a bit more represented there - less prisoners of "sensible" stuff maybe).. but in average, from 30s to 50-60s there will be less people discovering new music. If they really need an emotional shot, it's much easier to go back to whatever they're used to.

For the rest, the people who are open to be moved.. what moves them? Well that depends: while of course each individual is unique, we do share a lot of traits with our fellow humans, and there's certain subjects which have a big probability of hitting the target, depending on your age and situation. Anxiety, love, lust, longing, anger, rage - a lot of people will always react to these. And one a less cognitive level - repeated rhythmical patterns, loudness, interval sequences which recall stuff already heard (or so familiar to be even identical!), they will all be perceived as "good" by many people.

So is it "good" defined by quantity? I'm not sure I like this result, but so it seems.. Short of that there are so many "good" as people (which is nice, but useless for any reasoning) it seems that there is at least a connection between the two.

Or conversely, if nobody listens to it or is interested in it, is still good?

Re: In search of a new music.

PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:06 pm
by Parodites
" Very interesting! I think music is "good" or not subjectively depending on the feelings it evokes. So far, pretty obvious of course. "

This is something I never understood and it goes back to what I said in my last post about differences in the fundamental understanding of sound.

There are no feelings in beauty: as Schiller said, the beauty of the goddess holds us back in sublime awe and stills our hand, which we dare not move to touch her, that we disturb the celestial self-sufficiency whose image alone relents the succussive and marveled pulses of our mortal heart. Beauty is formal and representative, not emotional and reflective. Music, art,- none of this great culture-labor was undertaken to evoke "feelings". We all, each of us, have had our share of feeling- one need not make appeals to the gods and mete out justice here: as Pindar tells us, we are rewarded with mere images and shadows for our longing, for we are but images and shadows, and only images and shadows might riddle out and guess the depth of our fathomed heart,- a mortal heart, a heart that must die, as the poet half-laments. Feelings are petty, small, and finite. Art, however, leaves us in a sublimed awe, a heightened perception to our feelings and to everything else in fact,- to everything else, but to that greater, though silent "music of the spheres" especially, in whose intimations, as borne in our own songs, in our own less perfect, less complete, but ovant preludes we meekly acquiesce, awaiting some resolving phrase,- a chord whose answer reaches out beyond Death's paralyzed equivocation, and dissolve without complaint like the primogenial angels were said to do before God- to sing out our hearts into our own culminant silence, into the bare truth of recognition, into the lacrima of Virgil's meditation,- the stillness of self-defeated passion, of feeling broken upon its own strength and of the will brought finally inward, even to take the measure of its own extent and powers- it does not evoke them itself. It extends the horizon in which they present themselves to us, in which everything presents itself to us- as finite temporary excitements in the given horizon to which we've been accustomed by repeated experience in life, but as quite different things (even to the point of subsuming and violently contravening their habituated finite, mortal impressions) in the infinite horizon that art and, to an even deeper extent, philosophy awaken us to.

Re: In search of a new music.

PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:44 pm
by MOF
Is this post some kind of wind-up?

Re: In search of a new music.

PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:46 pm
by Alba
I think great art speaks for itself.

Re: In search of a new music.

PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:23 pm
by MOF
The excessive verbosity suggests the “Emperor’s new clothes” to me.
Describing a melody with words (not the arrangement structure) is a complete waste of time.

Re: In search of a new music.

PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:27 pm
by CS70
Parodites wrote:There are no feelings in beauty

"Beauty" is the very definition of a feeling. :headbang:

Or do you think that a frog thinks that Scarlett Johanson (or say a Raffaello) is beautiful?

Re: In search of a new music.

PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:58 pm
by Parodites
Uh huh, well I wasn't describing a melody. I was describing the aesthetic phenomenon, applicable to music, painting, or any other art form, and like I said:

Beauty is not really a simple evocation or stimulus, one has a dull conception of beauty if one thinks so- it is more of an awakening, a quite Platonic affair; an awakening, not to any one feeling or even group of feelings, but to the greater horizon in whose expanse we become more perceptive to the passing, to the diminishing and to the defeated feelings we are so vexed with in daily life, each of which hangs over its own little star in us, until finally an answering phrase comes to us beyond the shore of death to resolve the perplexed music of our desperations with the silent, eternal, and unpitying music of the spheres. There is a seething discontiguity and visionary excess in Bataille's thesis- one that strikes us dumb, torn open between the human intellect and the feelings like that between Scheler's Geist and Drang: more than any feeling in particular, it is precisely that symbolic gap, the great abyss between the two, whose violences art takes for its subject, however consciously or unconsciously on the part of the artist himself. As Vigny remarked, life is only a prelude to some unknown symphony that death cuts short, or a loam of earth that gives no answer to the question we've been asking all our life, in Heine's phrase. I am reminded, no less, of Proust's remark: in order to worship the divine in something, we must know first, that there is a God resting in it. Art tells us where all the sleeping Gods are.

Even my language, which you might call verbose, examples my commitment to that conception of art: to know where the Gods are resting, means to have come to that heightened awareness of your own passing feelings, and how the alteration of a single word or two can alter, radically, your own cognizance of those feelings. There are a million liminal contours between one feeling and another- to describe them might require me to become more verbose. But the verbosity is necessary, being coincident with my more precise command over my own awareness of these- feelings. Hence: verbose, compared to what? Your twitter feed or Kant? Verbose compared to your forum posts or Thomas Browne and Proust? Honestly, I don't know what's with your tone. If you don't understand something I said then ask, but this is how I both write and speak- if you think I'm verbose then, uh, sorry?

Re: In search of a new music.

PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:07 pm
by Sam Spoons

Re: In search of a new music.

PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:52 pm
by Parodites
Seriously I am beginning to get irritated with some of you. Just about everyone save Deegan immediately takes a defensive tone with me because you think I'm over-bearing and have something to prove, but look at the responses I've gotten:

1) "I am verbose."

2) "Beauty is the definition of feeling." [insert funny emoticon]


3) "Art speaks for itself."

You want to get defensive with me for no reason other than you find it difficult to follow me- because at no point was I ever insulting to anyone, go ahead; but I will simplify what I said as much as humanly possible since you're too proud to ask me to, MOF in particular- and remember I was never in any part insulting toward you until now: the greatest ideals, the highest-most realizations of spirit- the deepest beauties, are so far removed from life that they strike the drives of man silent and dumb, for they lack the means of intuiting that beauty as an object toward which to direct and regulate themselves, since they are not physical realities like those alongside which our drives had evolved and we cannot seize hold of and use them for the purposes of relieving an unsublimated libidinal charge- art emerges as an expression of this violent disconnection between the two, between Geist or spirit and the vital forces of life, and provides a higher vantage upon which man can become more aware of this "useless rebellion of the passions" as Mallarme calls it- of those forces, against the paralyzing "visionary excess" they have such difficulty understanding.