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In search of a new music.

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Re: In search of a new music.

Postby Parodites » Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:22 pm

The thing is, is I listen to my own music for pleasure and I do test my music by making sure I can hum it to myself and single out the melodic line.

Just, from what I was listening to today, https://audiomack.com/song/parodites/op ... verter-com

The part from 57:50 to exactly the one hour mark, about a 3-4 minute long section, which I listened to on repeat for about an hour earlier.
Or the little cadenza from this same composition at 34:28-35:25, I find unutterably beautiful.
I mean- can you really not identify the melodic lines there? I am curious. If you cannot, then there appears to be a profound difference in our understanding of sound at the most basic level.


And this entire movement also occupied me today: https://audiomack.com/song/parodites/orpheus-20-mins
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Re: In search of a new music.

Postby CS70 » Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:49 pm

Eddy Deegan wrote:
You cannot quantify, nor produce a blueprint for, subjectivity.

Very interesting! I think music is "good" or not subjectively depending on the feelings it evokes. So far, pretty obvious of course.

But it brings us to look at what is evoking feelings in people and why.

Imho the first thing is that a subject X must be "open" to a certain degree to actually have any feeling evoked. Now that's not so easy in our society: after 30-ish or so, people become generally so stressed and taken by menial daily life that they often don't have space for their own well being, relationships, development etc.. there's little space for casual focus on whatever piece of music.. Mozart himself could be writing a sonata, and many of these people wouldn't even notice.

So that leaves with relatively un-stressed people - towards the younger or the post-family/children/career - retired, perhaps? Or well grown up.

Obviously there's lots of individual exception - well-adapted people in their 30, 40s and 50s who are open to different emotional experiences (and musicians and artists tend perhaps to be a bit more represented there - less prisoners of "sensible" stuff maybe).. but in average, from 30s to 50-60s there will be less people discovering new music. If they really need an emotional shot, it's much easier to go back to whatever they're used to.

For the rest, the people who are open to be moved.. what moves them? Well that depends: while of course each individual is unique, we do share a lot of traits with our fellow humans, and there's certain subjects which have a big probability of hitting the target, depending on your age and situation. Anxiety, love, lust, longing, anger, rage - a lot of people will always react to these. And one a less cognitive level - repeated rhythmical patterns, loudness, interval sequences which recall stuff already heard (or so familiar to be even identical!), they will all be perceived as "good" by many people.

So is it "good" defined by quantity? I'm not sure I like this result, but so it seems.. Short of that there are so many "good" as people (which is nice, but useless for any reasoning) it seems that there is at least a connection between the two.

Or conversely, if nobody listens to it or is interested in it, is still good?
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Re: In search of a new music.

Postby Parodites » Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:06 pm

" Very interesting! I think music is "good" or not subjectively depending on the feelings it evokes. So far, pretty obvious of course. "

This is something I never understood and it goes back to what I said in my last post about differences in the fundamental understanding of sound.

There are no feelings in beauty: as Schiller said, the beauty of the goddess holds us back in sublime awe and stills our hand, which we dare not move to touch her, that we disturb the celestial self-sufficiency whose image alone relents the succussive and marveled pulses of our mortal heart. Beauty is formal and representative, not emotional and reflective. Music, art,- none of this great culture-labor was undertaken to evoke "feelings". We all, each of us, have had our share of feeling- one need not make appeals to the gods and mete out justice here: as Pindar tells us, we are rewarded with mere images and shadows for our longing, for we are but images and shadows, and only images and shadows might riddle out and guess the depth of our fathomed heart,- a mortal heart, a heart that must die, as the poet half-laments. Feelings are petty, small, and finite. Art, however, leaves us in a sublimed awe, a heightened perception to our feelings and to everything else in fact,- to everything else, but to that greater, though silent "music of the spheres" especially, in whose intimations, as borne in our own songs, in our own less perfect, less complete, but ovant preludes we meekly acquiesce, awaiting some resolving phrase,- a chord whose answer reaches out beyond Death's paralyzed equivocation, and dissolve without complaint like the primogenial angels were said to do before God- to sing out our hearts into our own culminant silence, into the bare truth of recognition, into the lacrima of Virgil's meditation,- the stillness of self-defeated passion, of feeling broken upon its own strength and of the will brought finally inward, even to take the measure of its own extent and powers- it does not evoke them itself. It extends the horizon in which they present themselves to us, in which everything presents itself to us- as finite temporary excitements in the given horizon to which we've been accustomed by repeated experience in life, but as quite different things (even to the point of subsuming and violently contravening their habituated finite, mortal impressions) in the infinite horizon that art and, to an even deeper extent, philosophy awaken us to.
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Re: In search of a new music.

Postby MOF » Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:44 pm

Is this post some kind of wind-up?
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Re: In search of a new music.

Postby Alba » Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:46 pm

I think great art speaks for itself.
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Re: In search of a new music.

Postby MOF » Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:23 pm

The excessive verbosity suggests the “Emperor’s new clothes” to me.
Describing a melody with words (not the arrangement structure) is a complete waste of time.
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Re: In search of a new music.

Postby CS70 » Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:27 pm

Parodites wrote:There are no feelings in beauty

"Beauty" is the very definition of a feeling. :headbang:

Or do you think that a frog thinks that Scarlett Johanson (or say a Raffaello) is beautiful?
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Re: In search of a new music.

Postby Parodites » Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:58 pm

Uh huh, well I wasn't describing a melody. I was describing the aesthetic phenomenon, applicable to music, painting, or any other art form, and like I said:

Beauty is not really a simple evocation or stimulus, one has a dull conception of beauty if one thinks so- it is more of an awakening, a quite Platonic affair; an awakening, not to any one feeling or even group of feelings, but to the greater horizon in whose expanse we become more perceptive to the passing, to the diminishing and to the defeated feelings we are so vexed with in daily life, each of which hangs over its own little star in us, until finally an answering phrase comes to us beyond the shore of death to resolve the perplexed music of our desperations with the silent, eternal, and unpitying music of the spheres. There is a seething discontiguity and visionary excess in Bataille's thesis- one that strikes us dumb, torn open between the human intellect and the feelings like that between Scheler's Geist and Drang: more than any feeling in particular, it is precisely that symbolic gap, the great abyss between the two, whose violences art takes for its subject, however consciously or unconsciously on the part of the artist himself. As Vigny remarked, life is only a prelude to some unknown symphony that death cuts short, or a loam of earth that gives no answer to the question we've been asking all our life, in Heine's phrase. I am reminded, no less, of Proust's remark: in order to worship the divine in something, we must know first, that there is a God resting in it. Art tells us where all the sleeping Gods are.

Even my language, which you might call verbose, examples my commitment to that conception of art: to know where the Gods are resting, means to have come to that heightened awareness of your own passing feelings, and how the alteration of a single word or two can alter, radically, your own cognizance of those feelings. There are a million liminal contours between one feeling and another- to describe them might require me to become more verbose. But the verbosity is necessary, being coincident with my more precise command over my own awareness of these- feelings. Hence: verbose, compared to what? Your twitter feed or Kant? Verbose compared to your forum posts or Thomas Browne and Proust? Honestly, I don't know what's with your tone. If you don't understand something I said then ask, but this is how I both write and speak- if you think I'm verbose then, uh, sorry?
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Re: In search of a new music.

Postby Sam Spoons » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:07 pm

:bouncy:
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Re: In search of a new music.

Postby Parodites » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:52 pm

Seriously I am beginning to get irritated with some of you. Just about everyone save Deegan immediately takes a defensive tone with me because you think I'm over-bearing and have something to prove, but look at the responses I've gotten:

1) "I am verbose."

2) "Beauty is the definition of feeling." [insert funny emoticon]

and

3) "Art speaks for itself."

You want to get defensive with me for no reason other than you find it difficult to follow me- because at no point was I ever insulting to anyone, go ahead; but I will simplify what I said as much as humanly possible since you're too proud to ask me to, MOF in particular- and remember I was never in any part insulting toward you until now: the greatest ideals, the highest-most realizations of spirit- the deepest beauties, are so far removed from life that they strike the drives of man silent and dumb, for they lack the means of intuiting that beauty as an object toward which to direct and regulate themselves, since they are not physical realities like those alongside which our drives had evolved and we cannot seize hold of and use them for the purposes of relieving an unsublimated libidinal charge- art emerges as an expression of this violent disconnection between the two, between Geist or spirit and the vital forces of life, and provides a higher vantage upon which man can become more aware of this "useless rebellion of the passions" as Mallarme calls it- of those forces, against the paralyzing "visionary excess" they have such difficulty understanding.
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Re: In search of a new music.

Postby Alba » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:57 pm

Hi, you misquoted me. I said that I think "great art speaks for itself."

Parodites wrote:...the greatest ideals, the highest-most realizations of spirit- the deepest beauties, are so far removed from life that they strike the drives of man silent and dumb...

I agree.
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Re: In search of a new music.

Postby Parodites » Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:08 pm

Sorry it's not you, it's the MOF guy who pissed me off with the defensive tone he took like I insulted him somehow.
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Re: In search of a new music.

Postby Alba » Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:19 pm

If you are going to make a life in the arts and not go mad, then you have to just not give a shit when people tell you you're crap, laugh at you or tear up you stuff.
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Re: In search of a new music.

Postby Parodites » Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:32 pm

I'm already mad by default, inasmuch as a personality disorder can be called madness- or the fact that I haven't left a single room in 15 years and have spent 16 hours a day writing for that time. The artist must take consolation in history, in perceiving and looking upon all things from the perspective of what is eternal, with faith that eternity will not deny him. Nobody living can appraise the worth of art- only history can. When people praise me, it means as little as when they criticize me- for I never let myself lose that perspective; both my love and contempt, my praise and condemnation, could be forgotten or gained in history,- it is as vain to feed one's heart with either of them. It's just- if you're going to call me verbose, then restate what I said to demonstrate you even understood it and then phrase it more simply than I did and show how it's verbose.
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Re: In search of a new music.

Postby Parodites » Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:54 pm

Mostly because I don't know how to continue the conversation when MOF just says: you're verbose, with no other information, no reason to think my point was or wasn't received or understod, etc. There's no response to that, it's just a dead end.

Plus I don't like the typical view of art where people use music and books to distract themselves from the miserable void in their own lives and receive a little boost of emotional thrill, an excitement. Art cannot reveal to you any emotion that wasn't already in you, the real task of art isn't excitement or the evocation of emotions, but providing us a higher vantage to analyze all that pre-existing emotional baggage we've accumulated in life- precisely by bringing that "visionary excess" of the beautiful to bear,- those perplexing ideals that strike our senses and drives dumb and silent like Schiller's apothegms on the goddess I had mentioned.
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