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In search of a new music.

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Re: In search of a new music.

Postby Alba » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:57 pm

Hi, you misquoted me. I said that I think "great art speaks for itself."

Parodites wrote:...the greatest ideals, the highest-most realizations of spirit- the deepest beauties, are so far removed from life that they strike the drives of man silent and dumb...

I agree.
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Re: In search of a new music.

Postby Parodites » Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:08 pm

Sorry it's not you, it's the MOF guy who pissed me off with the defensive tone he took like I insulted him somehow.
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Re: In search of a new music.

Postby Alba » Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:19 pm

If you are going to make a life in the arts and not go mad, then you have to just not give a shit when people tell you you're crap, laugh at you or tear up you stuff.
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Re: In search of a new music.

Postby Parodites » Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:32 pm

I'm already mad by default, inasmuch as a personality disorder can be called madness- or the fact that I haven't left a single room in 15 years and have spent 16 hours a day writing for that time. The artist must take consolation in history, in perceiving and looking upon all things from the perspective of what is eternal, with faith that eternity will not deny him. Nobody living can appraise the worth of art- only history can. When people praise me, it means as little as when they criticize me- for I never let myself lose that perspective; both my love and contempt, my praise and condemnation, could be forgotten or gained in history,- it is as vain to feed one's heart with either of them. It's just- if you're going to call me verbose, then restate what I said to demonstrate you even understood it and then phrase it more simply than I did and show how it's verbose.
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Re: In search of a new music.

Postby Parodites » Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:54 pm

Mostly because I don't know how to continue the conversation when MOF just says: you're verbose, with no other information, no reason to think my point was or wasn't received or understod, etc. There's no response to that, it's just a dead end.

Plus I don't like the typical view of art where people use music and books to distract themselves from the miserable void in their own lives and receive a little boost of emotional thrill, an excitement. Art cannot reveal to you any emotion that wasn't already in you, the real task of art isn't excitement or the evocation of emotions, but providing us a higher vantage to analyze all that pre-existing emotional baggage we've accumulated in life- precisely by bringing that "visionary excess" of the beautiful to bear,- those perplexing ideals that strike our senses and drives dumb and silent like Schiller's apothegms on the goddess I had mentioned.
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Re: In search of a new music.

Postby MOF » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:32 am

Parodites you haven’t insulted me I’m just questioning if this post is a wind-up.
melodies are conceived in two directions, simultaneously backward and forward across the temporal continuum....... finding a way to increase the scope of the temporal field upon which melodies are constructed, allows an entirely new universe of possible melodies to be discovered.
Does this really make sense to you, how do you propose composing forwards and backwards in time?
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Re: In search of a new music.

Postby CS70 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:56 am

Parodites wrote:Seriously I am beginning to get irritated with some of you.

Well looks you're a bit touchy.

Beauty is not really a simple evocation or stimulus, one has a dull conception of beauty if one thinks so

That's very pompous. Dull is making up stuff that doesn't exist to please one's ego. People's been doing that since the very beginning.

the greater horizon in whose expanse we become more perceptive to the passing

"Perceptive". That's the whole point. There's no absolute beauty - no platonic idea. Without people there's no beauty. The concept is the definition of someone's reaction to something. The same way there's no good taste without a tongue.

Unless you want to invent your own vocabulary, that is. Again, that's something sellers of hot air have done for millennia.

And I that was hoping for a serious conversation. :headbang:
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Re: In search of a new music.

Postby MOF » Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:05 am

Parodites you haven’t insulted me I’m just questioning if this post is a wind-up.
melodies are conceived in two directions, simultaneously backward and forward across the temporal continuum....... finding a way to increase the scope of the temporal field upon which melodies are constructed, allows an entirely new universe of possible melodies to be discovered.
Does this really make sense to you, how do you propose composing forwards and backwards in time?
I wasn't describing a melody. I was describing the aesthetic phenomenon, applicable to music, painting, or any other art form
The first quote was indeed all about melodies.
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Re: In search of a new music.

Postby Parodites » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:30 am

I'm not touchy I just don't like people interjecting completely empty content into a thread: I got irritated because MOF called me verbose for no reason and that is a conversational dead-end. Notice that until that moment, I at no point in this thread demonstrated hostility.

The long post you called verbose was just speaking about art in general, it brought up music but only incidentally it wasn't a harmonic analysis. I was just speaking about my view of art in general.

"Unless you want to invent your own vocabulary, that is. Again, that's something sellers of hot air have done for millennia. "

You mentioned Plato dude- my definition of Beauty is pretty much a modern version of his. Second of all, I'm not selling you anything.

Now you asked if it really makes sense to me, or how it makes sense, to compose melodic lines in multiple temporal directions.

http://m-base.com/essays/symmetrical-movement-concept/

" All of the examples above are written in atonal space. The analysis of the axial progression can be thought of in any number of different ways. In other words it is possible to analyze these same passages differently and still be well within the given laws. Notice that the above examples require thinking in small cells of ideas, at least initially. However there is a linear gravity involved in the thinking which requires that the improviser become fluent in thinking in two directions simultaneously. It should be clear from Example 5 that it helps to be able to think at least two or three tones backward and forward in time. This is a different skill than the normal way of thinking as retention of individual tones, as well as phrases, needs to be practiced. For instance, in Example 5 at the end of measure 2, the tones F and E are the axis, not only of the tones immediately following (A and C) but also of the preceding tones (Db and Ab)! Overall this produces a sort of accordion effect in time. Not that this will be heard by the average person, especially given the speed of execution, but it will be felt and it does have an effect."

So yeah, it does make sense to me. I read a lot of this guy's theory but keep in mind that is only one conception of the idea. I am surprised you not only haven't heard of something like it but would question if it even makes sense. I am aware that I might be over-bearing and intimidating but- well, there isn't a but. Just, I know.
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Re: In search of a new music.

Postby CS70 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:20 am

Parodites wrote:I'm not touchy I just don't like people interjecting completely empty content into a thread: I got irritated because MOF called me verbose for no reason and that is a conversational dead-end. Notice that until that moment, I at no point in this thread demonstrated hostility.


I wrote you're touchy because you demonstraded hostility at that point - and generalized hostility at that, not just towards the person who had been a little direct with you.

It's an internet conversation: no matter what you write, you will sooner or late meet someone you perceive as rude. It's the nature of the beast. Just ignore it and nobody will call u touchy.

The long post you called verbose was just speaking about art in general, it brought up music but only incidentally it wasn't a harmonic analysis. I was just speaking about my view of art in general.

I think you're mixing people. I never called you verbose. As you say, MOF did. Just ignore it if you don't like, it's Internet talk.

"Unless you want to invent your own vocabulary, that is. Again, that's something sellers of hot air have done for millennia. "

You mentioned Plato dude- my definition of Beauty is pretty much a modern version of his. Second of all, I'm not selling you anything. '


"Selling" in the sense of claiming. You talk of beauty as something abstract, ignoring that its definition is based on perception (notably, human being perceptions).

As I said, you can make your own definition (just as you wrote, "your" definition of beauty) but that's little conductive of discourse: nobody will understand what you are saying.

Discussing beauty and stating that it's not dependent on perceptions it's like discussing water and saying it's dependent on temperature. You can just take a stone and call it "water" but it won't mean much.

If you mean that beauty is not depending on someone's perception, show an example where it isn't. You will have a very hard time finding one, because there ain't any..
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Re: In search of a new music.

Postby MOF » Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:57 pm

The long post you called verbose was just speaking about art in general, it brought up music but only incidentally it wasn't a harmonic analysis. I was just speaking about my view of art in general.....Now you asked if it really makes sense to me, or how it makes sense, to compose melodic lines in multiple temporal directions.

http://m-base.com/essays/symmetrical-mo ... t-concept/
Parodites You were talking about composing melodies not harmonic analysis, the article you quoted is not about creating melodies in multiple temporal (time) directions. The only way you can compose forwards and backwards is by reversing the tape, or its modern equivalent, with existing recordings on and then add new tracks, this has already been done by The Beatles, so no new forms of composition. If you do this with a midi sequencer i.e. no obviously backwards sounds when the (virtual) tape is turned over you just end up with something you would most likely have composed initially and it’s most probably been done already.
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