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Need help with stage mix/stage monitors.

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Re: Need help with stage mix/stage monitors.

Postby JordanE » Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:46 pm

Thanks for the fast reply and glad I was able to find a forum like this.

Unfortunately Exalted Wombat I cannot do that since then the other person will complain of not being heard. Also I keep the monitors low to prevent feedback. Plus the guitar players do not use their amps on stage. if that is what you were referring to..?

Hey Bob Bickerton, I currently have 6 aux send master and 4 which I believe are pre fader. Also I am sure I have some return channels. Like I said I am new and have not yet attended school for this so still learning. Please bear with me.. Was going to move the drummer on to a headphone mix next week but how would I exactly make it his own? I was just going to plug him in to his drummer monitor out with headphones then pull the drummer monitor over to another guitar players ear?

Also just to confirm I can buy say two more powered amps and place them stage end and run them back through the snake to the console?
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Re: Need help with stage mix/stage monitors.

Postby Exalted Wombat » Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:05 am

JordanE wrote:Thanks for the fast reply and glad I was able to find a forum like this.

Unfortunately Exalted Wombat I cannot do that since then the other person will complain of not being heard. Also I keep the monitors low to prevent feedback. Plus the guitar players do not use their amps on stage. if that is what you were referring to..?

Hey Bob Bickerton, I currently have 6 aux send master and 4 which I believe are pre fader. Also I am sure I have some return channels. Like I said I am new and have not yet attended school for this so still learning. Please bear with me.. Was going to move the drummer on to a headphone mix next week but how would I exactly make it his own? I was just going to plug him in to his drummer monitor out with headphones then pull the drummer monitor over to another guitar players ear?

Also just to confirm I can buy say two more powered amps and place them stage end and run them back through the snake to the console?

Well, you DID say "... by the time I get to adjusting everyone the stage mix is not only chaos it is so loud that people sitting in the front row are literally only hearing the stage mix along with the main mix causing the sound to sound horrible ..." This sounds very much like everything needs balancing at a lower overall level. Why is it pushing up? The guitarists don't have combo amps on stage, so we can't blame them. Should the drummer use lighter sticks and listen more? Is everyone really LISTENING and making their own internal balance, or are they all thrashing away and playing the "more me" game with the monitors, expecting you to extract a musical balance?

Try this. Turn the FOH speakers off completely. Do a sound check with just monitors. It shouldn't be too hard to get everyone hearing the mix. Make sure they are aware that if (say) a guitarist can't hear a singer, HE must play softer. If the drummer can't hear the band over his own drums, HE mustn't hit things so hard.

Once you've got them all acting like musicians, turn up the FOH speakers a bit. You may be surprised how little they need to be turned up, now everyone's adjusted to lower overall levels. The audience will be happy, balance will be good and the band won't damage their hearing :-)

Don't quite know what you meaan by running a powered monitor "back through the snake to the console"? It's the other way round - you send a signal FROM the desk TO the monitor. But yes, the snake works both ways (maybe with some gender-change cables or adapters, if it's wired expecting just microphones.)
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Re: Need help with stage mix/stage monitors.

Postby JordanE » Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:20 am

This is true. Maybe I am the only one that notices it but when I turn the monitors on/off I can hear the back of the room just fill with sound. Maybe I am wrong but when I can hear that back in the sound booth that to me is to loud. Most likely we tweaking the stage mix so much is my inexperience speaking..


The guitar sound is not so much the problem. It's that one of the guitar players is literally deaf which makes it hard and the other one is just doing solos on stage. We also have a drummer which doesn't necessarily band on the drums but for the size of the room,shape,position of monitors and people it adds more confusion. Already looking in to a drum shield FYI.

Acting like musicians? lol These people are the people who think their good but really not and act like they know a lot..Plus it's a church so I cannot get mad at them if you know what I mean? Basically I need to do a balancing act without letting them know who's on what scale.

Yes, I had the wiring of the monitors backwards when I typed that. I apologize for that.


As for turning off the FOH speakers they used to be off completely. Before I showed up they didn't know how to use the mains and the main sound was coming from two small powered stage monitors. It was terrible. I will definitely take it in to consideration and look in to options.


Can any of you guys recommend some powered stage amps that wont break the budget?
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Re: Need help with stage mix/stage monitors.

Postby aekoi » Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:56 am

Hi there.

If you fed separate mixes to each performer that would help. You may need some more kit and cables to do this, but the 4 pre fade aux sends on your desk ultimately allow 4 separate monitor mixes.

Theses monitors are ok for the money
http://www.wembleypacentre.com/Catalogue/PA-Centre/Speakers/Wharfedale/Wharfedale-EVPX15PM-2-Way-15-400W-Active-Monitor-EVPX15PM

and if you look around you'll get them a bit cheaper too. They are active so just run a cable and you're done. A simple 2 mix system with stage front mix and separate drummer mix may be the first thing to try.

Cheers
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Re: Need help with stage mix/stage monitors.

Postby JordanE » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:33 am

I plan on running multiple mixes for each singer but I am just limited to the fact that I need for monitors,longer cables assuming if I cannot use the snake which I will experiment with Tuesday. At minimum I can take one monitor run it for the singers then the other one and drummer monitor run it for drummer and guitar players. I also plan on using stage amps also since I am running DI boxes which may help depending on what and how I use them.
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Re: Need help with stage mix/stage monitors.

Postby Bob Bickerton » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:36 am

Hi Jordan

Having read the rest of your responses, you seem to be pretty confused as to how all this works and what purpose each part of the sound system can or can't do. This will be difficult to solve simply on a forum (though you are very welcome here).

I'd like to suggest you call in a sound technician to help you set up your system and give you a few hours training. That would be money very well spent. Where are you? If you're lucky, someone from the forum maybe close and happy to help.

Also your musicians are more likely to listen to an independent 'expert' during sound check which would hopefully set you up for the future.

Bob
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Re: Need help with stage mix/stage monitors.

Postby JordanE » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:49 am

I will admit I am a little bit confused. I am actually going to be trained to become an audio engineer but the process just hasn't started yet.. I am located in California above the Sacramento area.


I am a good problem solver I just sometimes need some help. When I go out their on Tuesday I will be doing a lot of work and tweaking to see what I can come up with.
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Re: Need help with stage mix/stage monitors.

Postby Bob Bickerton » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:35 am

Don't doubt your ability to solve the issues, that's good. It would just be so much easier to get some hands on help at this time - plus the process of working with a professional would be a positive experience for you.

If you wanted more help here, it would be useful to list all your gear (brand and model number), all the inputs you're using (mics and DI's), the specs of your snake, etc. Are the guitarists/singers one of the same and maybe even an idea of where everyone is on stage.

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Re: Need help with stage mix/stage monitors.

Postby JordanE » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:45 am

Sounds like a plan! I will need to check on all the models and equipment since I do not have it memorized but later tonight I will post a simple drawing of where they are.
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Re: Need help with stage mix/stage monitors.

Postby JordanE » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:08 am

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Re: Need help with stage mix/stage monitors.

Postby Mike Stranks » Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:00 am

All good stuff here from Wombat and Bob...

Jordan: seems like you have all the usual elements in play here which go to make church sound such an 'interesting' experience!

I do quite a bit of consultancy for churches on sound issues (happy to come to Sacramento on an 'expenses only' basis! :D) and I have encountered the issues you describe many, many times.

Requests for over-loud monitors is often a by-product of unconfident musicians who are not very experienced at playing in a band and working with the "natural" sound coming from the other musicians. Thus, they end up wanting lots of virtually everything in the monitor mix and the result is the undefined high stage volume you've described.

Take Bob's advice and try and find someone in your area who can come in and give some external unbiased advice. Not only will they know what they're talking about they'll also be outside the accumulated politics of bands/worship-groups which is quite often in-play.

I'd also encourage you to have at look at the JamHub range of products which provide a relatively good in-ear monitor mix at comparatively modest cost. On their website you should be able to track-down a copy of a paper I wrote about installing a JamHub 'GreenRoom' for a church in the UK. Or PM me with your email address and I'll be happy to send you a pdf of it. The good news is that you can now buy the solution I devised off-the-shelf in the States - see the JamHub forums for a URL.

Usual disclaimer here - I have no association with either JamHub or the company that's now marketing the complete IEM solution based around a JamHub and I have no financial stake in either.

HTH. Mike
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Re: Need help with stage mix/stage monitors.

Postby JordanE » Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:27 am

Yes I have one guitar player who uses this really crappy effects processor. He is not to good but it makes him feel better. Which causes so much crap on my end to deal with.

I have looked at in ear monitors before but was unable to find a good pair and plus I didn't like that u had to wear the receiver on your hip. Don't get me wrong it would be great for the drummer and one guitar player then I could use the other monitors for the singers..

I have several people in my area in which can help. One of which who actually trained me and runs sound for another larger church down the road. main problem is he knows what we need and how to do it but church is to cheap to drop the money to get what we need. Plus some of what we need to get to is buried under two foot of cement and the stage access is a little hard. We have about 1 foot height under the stage. Almost impossible to get under their let alone see where your wires are going. So I am working with what I got. Slowly but surely I am making changes and getting everything working but still learning my self!
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Re: Need help with stage mix/stage monitors.

Postby Dave Rowles » Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:30 am

I'll re-iterate, if you can find the make and model number of the mixer you use, and the make and model number of monitors and amps, then we can probably describe what you need to do.

Give your other posts, I'm not entirely sure you need to spend any more money at this point, but without knowing what mixer you're working with it's hard for us to give anything more than general advice.
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Re: Need help with stage mix/stage monitors.

Postby Mike Stranks » Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:39 am

JordanE wrote:I have looked at in ear monitors before but was unable to find a good pair and plus I didn't like that u had to wear the receiver on your hip. Don't get me wrong it would be great for the drummer and one guitar player then I could use the other monitors for the singers..

... not all IEMs are wireless...

In that the light of what you said about 'spend' being an issue, then Exavior is on the money... tell us what you have and people here will be able to help you maximize the benefit.
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Re: Need help with stage mix/stage monitors.

Postby Exalted Wombat » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:49 pm

If you can hook up enough monitors, each player can have one VERY close to his ears. He won't want it too loud then!
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