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High Frequency Drivers. Give your opinions plz.

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High Frequency Drivers. Give your opinions plz.

Postby patrick19867 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:42 pm

I have a small band currently I keep blowing my high frequency horn diaphragms. Am now seeking to upgrade them. What drivers would you guys recommend if I am on a budget? Current I have seen eminence so called 500w 1.75" voice coil drivers. Not getting enough output from them and they keep getting burnt. Need drivers that will give me real nice high frequency with extension low as well.
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Re: High Frequency Drivers. Give your opinions plz.

Postby James Perrett » Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:52 pm

A common reason for blowing HF drivers is that something is clipping - either the power amp isn't big enough or your gain is set incorrectly. What are you driving them with?
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Re: High Frequency Drivers. Give your opinions plz.

Postby Mike Stranks » Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:13 pm

Welcome!

As James says, amp clipping is a likely cause of regularly blowing HF drivers. IME it's usually caused by overdriving the amp. The give-away phrase in your post is "... not getting enough output..."

I'd suggest looking further back down the chain for what's causing the problem rather than constantly fixing the results of the problem... it's not recommended to 'fix' blowing fuses by replacing them with bigger ones... :)
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Re: High Frequency Drivers. Give your opinions plz.

Postby patrick19867 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:16 pm

Driving them with a peavey1200 older amp. I need more output with the hi hats and cymbals plus seeking to extend lower frequencies as well to achieve some rimshot or cross stick on the snare drum which clicks within the 3k region. Therefore seeking advice as to drivers which may allow me to accomplish that 2" or 3" diaphragms.
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Re: High Frequency Drivers. Give your opinions plz.

Postby Mike Stranks » Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:04 pm

Can you give us a bit more detail please?

Are these speaker cabs with integral woofers and HF drivers or are you using separate mid and top cabs?

If separate, what crossover do you have and what x-over frequency are you using? What other amp(s) are in the system?

Or if integrated speakers what's the make/model? In fact, a full break-down of the kit being used and how it's connected would be very helpful in pinpointing the problem.

From your second post I'd suggest that you're putting more HF through the system than the amp can cope with... and when that happens usually the first things to protest are the HF drivers.

It's almost certainly not a HF driver issue. When the amp is clipping it produces square waves which cause the HF drivers to fail. The solution is probably not to beef-up the drivers, but to beef-up the amp... (I've checked the specs for that Peavey amp and it's not very powerful... That reinforces my suspicions...)

But until we have some more facts and figures from you it's a bit of a guessing-game...
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Re: High Frequency Drivers. Give your opinions plz.

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:17 pm

It would also be helpful to know what you're putting through these speakers and the size of room you're typically playing.

Like the others above, I suspect you're trying to get much more level out of your cabs than they're designed to give and new tweeters -- even more sensitive ones with greater power handling -- won't really help.

H
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Re: High Frequency Drivers. Give your opinions plz.

Postby patrick19867 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:43 pm

Ok here goes. These were cabs made by my dad. They are non powered speakers. Each cabinet has an Eminence 15" woofer and a horn in it. My amplifier is never clipping when playing the horns and that is the dedicated horn amplifier 600w rms is the output per channel and each channel plays 2 horn drivers only at 8ohms per driver. I don't normally get distortion before the coils are burnt either. I jus think for the gigs I use them for they cannot give me the sound output level I need. I do alot of outdoor gigs and indoor gigs. Small concerts, weddings, parties etc I use a driverack as the crossover
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Re: High Frequency Drivers. Give your opinions plz.

Postby Mike Stranks » Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:43 pm

patrick19867 wrote:Ok here goes. These were cabs made by my dad. They are non powered speakers. Each cabinet has an Eminence 15" woofer and a horn in it. My amplifier is never clipping when playing the horns and that is the dedicated horn amplifier 600w rms is the output per channel and each channel plays 2 horn drivers only at 8ohms per driver. I don't normally get distortion before the coils are burnt either. I jus think for the gigs I use them for they cannot give me the sound output level I need. I do alot of outdoor gigs and indoor gigs. Small concerts, weddings, parties etc I use a driverack as the crossover

The only spec I found for that amp shows its output at 600 watts (RMS) per channel into 2 ohms. You're connecting 8-ohm drivers so that's dropped it down to 150 watts (RMS) per channel.

How have you set-up the Driverack? What is the crossover point?

You say that the amp isn't clipping... how do you know that? Is the DDT engaged?
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Postby Sam Spoons » Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:29 pm

Also what are the specific drivers you have now? if you're running the amp from the drive rack into two x 8 ohm drivers per side that's 4 ohms, so It's probably putting out around 300 watts a side. If the drivers are '600 watt' HF drivers their actual power handling capacity is probably around 10% or 60 watts (they are rated that way because they are designed to be teamed up with a 600 watt LF unit with a passive crossover in a 'nominally' 600 watt cab, the HF requiring about 10% of the rated power to match the LF energy). A 300 watt amp is more than capable of burning out the voice coils in the HF drivers and there is no protection as there would be in an active/powered cab.
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Re: High Frequency Drivers. Give your opinions plz.

Postby patrick19867 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:02 am

The crossover point is set at 3khz much higher than where I want it to be set at about 1.5khz or 2khz. The amp is obviously giving way more power to the horns as each side plays two of the 8ohm drivers. So I know I need upgraded drivers to match the mids coming from the eminence 15" woofers. Just want to know some good budget 2" or 3" voice coil ones. I got one suggestion for a provider brand driver but not familiar with the brand at all. By the way ddt is engaged on the amplifier.
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Re: High Frequency Drivers. Give your opinions plz.

Postby Sam Spoons » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:21 am

I can't suggest a specific brand from personal experience (it's a good few years since I last used unpowered speakers) but Eminence have a decent rep.

You would probably benefit from some kind of protection, either a bulb or, better, a polyfuze in series with the drivers. I may take some experimentation with values to get protection without limiting the output too much but it could save you some expensive repairs.
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Re: High Frequency Drivers. Give your opinions plz.

Postby Wonks » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:39 pm

None of the current Eminence compression drivers are rated at more than 100W (AES). What is the model of the Eminence driver you are using?
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Re: High Frequency Drivers. Give your opinions plz.

Postby patrick19867 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:41 pm

Just made some checks and found BK bdum120 written on the driver itself and eminence written on the diaphragm so I am now guessing that it is a Blasking (Bk) Driver with an Eminence diaphrahm.
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Re: High Frequency Drivers. Give your opinions plz.

Postby Wonks » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:20 am

OK. If you look at their current brochure, you'll note that the wattage values for the drivers are peak power ratings, a common means to make a speaker look like it's got a lot more output and power handling than it actually is. https://blastking.com/catalogs/Blastking%20Pro%20Audio%20Catalog%202017.pdf

Typically RMS power is the lowest value wattage rating, music power is typically double that value and peak power double that again (though I have seen it even higher). So your compression driver probably has a maximum RMS power handling value of around 100W. It might be slightly more, but it's better to err on the safe side, especially when you look at the ratings from other manufacturers like Eminence and Celestion for similar sized units.

The unit is quoted at producing an SPL of 108dB at 1W (which seems about right). 100W is a 20dB gain on power compared to the 1W value, so you should be getting an SPL of around 128dB at 100W input, which is perfectly reasonable and probably more than a match for the 15" driver's output.

If you are using the Peavey PV1200 amp here https://assets.peavey.com/literature/manuals/80304316.pdf then that will output 450W per channel into 4 ohms, or 225W per driver. This may be slightly larger than recommended (which is normally 1.5x to 2x the speaker power handling capacity), but normally not enough to worry about unless the amp's being pushed really hard.

The amp will put 270W into 8 ohms, so if one compression driver fails and goes open circuit, then the other one will get even more power as a result, so that will almost certainly burn out as well within a short period of time.

The problem might be is that as you've got the DDT on, the signal won't clip but it will get more compressed as you turn the amp up in an effort to get more sound out of the HF units, which will still increase the average power level put through the drivers. Clipping adds more power at high frequencies, (a lot will be ultrasonic), but compression can add just as much extra power into the signal that the drivers will struggle with, but it won't sound distorted.

So I'd say the drivers are burning out because they are simply trying to handle too much power.

A photo would be nice. You said that each cab had a 15" driver and a horn in it, so from that can we assume that you have two of these cabs on either side of the stage?

Each cabinet has an Eminence 15" woofer and a horn in it. My amplifier is never clipping when playing the horns and that is the dedicated horn amplifier 600w rms is the output per channel and each channel plays 2 horn drivers only at 8ohms per driver

Just trying to fully understand the setup here.

If you have one cab sat on top of the other cab and pointing in the same direction (and not covering totally different areas of the room), then you are going to get a fair amount of comb filtering occurring which will sound bad, Do you have to use two cabs? Have you tried just using one per side? If you have to use two cabs, then if you can, try putting one upside down on the other so that the HF units are close to each other. This will minimise the amount of comb filtering that occurs and probably increase the perceived HF level. You could try just connecting one horn to the amp on each side and seeing if you get any improvement in sound.

I presume you've double checked that the wiring inside the cabs is the same in each cab so that +ve always goes to +ve ( and -ve to -ve) when they are connected in parallel?
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Re: High Frequency Drivers. Give your opinions plz.

Postby patrick19867 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:00 am

Thanks for all the responses so far. I really appreciate all your input. The polarity for the horns are correct and I normally put mid-range cabs 2 per side of the stage and they are beside each other most times. I agree with wonks when he says the horns are being overpowered. The output I seek I just can't get from these horns so the question now is what are suggested upgrades???
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Re: High Frequency Drivers. Give your opinions plz.

Postby Wonks » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:02 pm

It's hard to say. The quoted sensitivity of those compression drivers is on a par with other makes and 100W seems to be around the maximum handling capacity that's obtainable.

How big is the horn that the driver is fitted to? I really know very little about these things, but a quick web search indicates that the horn depth should be no greater than 1 wavelength of the lowest frequency produced or you get excessive travel of the diaphragm and the diaphragm cracks. So if that's 3kHz (though the crossover will allow lower frequencies through but at reducing volume levels as the frequency decreases - so I'm not sure at what point you stop), then the horn should be no more than 4.52" deep. If it's deeper, then that could be another cause of driver failure.

http://education.lenardaudio.com/en/07_horns_2.html

If the compression drivers are performing as specified, then they should be more than loud enough for the 15" drivers with 100W input power. In fact one horn would probably be sufficient for two 15" drivers.

I'd still test the rig out with only one of the compression drivers connected per side, just to see how bad the phasing issues are when using two horns per side. It only takes a moment to plug and unplug the 2nd horn.

I'm sure you know, but I don't, if there are any components in the cab between the input connector and the compression driver? I'm assuming that it's just some cable between the input connector and the driver? No attenuation resistors or crossover components?
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Re: High Frequency Drivers. Give your opinions plz.

Postby patrick19867 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:23 pm

Although it was stated that this driver should be strong enough to cover two midrange speakers that's not the case. I don't have phasing issues and there are no crossover components withing the box itself. I need suggestions for horn drivers that can stand up to the test. Spoke with some other guys and they suggested 2" exit and 3" voicecoil compression drivers. What are the suggestions you have guys???????
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Re: High Frequency Drivers. Give your opinions plz.

Postby resistorman » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:52 pm

It seems to me what would work better for you is a 3 way system. You’re trying to get too much out of those drivers.
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Re: High Frequency Drivers. Give your opinions plz.

Postby patrick19867 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:05 am

Someone outside the forum suggested
S-D309-TI 2” Compression Driver (Spyn brand).
Any reviews it other suggestions?
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Re: High Frequency Drivers. Give your opinions plz.

Postby Sam Spoons » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:16 am

No experience but 300 watts peak power is lower than the ones you have but it claims a 'musical RMS (AES)' power handling of 150 watts and is a couple of dB more sensitive at 110dB SPL so should be capable of producing a few more dB SPL output (say around 132dB SPL which is pretty impressive if it can deliver).

However Blasking do a 1000 watt peak horn (BDUM 400B) which claims 110 dB SPL so that would get a fair bit louder still (again no experience but on paper........) say 134dB SPL?
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