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Can't get singers input gain to unity without feedback

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Re: Can't get singers input gain to unity without feedback

Postby ef37a » Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:14 pm

James Perrett wrote:
ef37a wrote:"She also insists on reverb in her monitor mix,"

Not Shirley Bassey is she? (g'wan ask her! I dare you.)

Sounds like a reet diva!

Reverb in a monitor mix is standard for vocalists - just make sure that the reverb setting that you use doesn't resonate at a feedback frequency. Sometimes delay rather than reverb will work better.

Wasn't "reverb" that bugged me James, it was the "insists"!

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Re: Can't get singers input gain to unity without feedback

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:50 pm

ef37a wrote:Wasn't "reverb" that bugged me James, it was the "insists"!

If I was a vocalist I might insist on monitor reverb too. It is often critical for tuning and performance. I wouldn't consider such a request Diva-like or unreasonable at all.

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Re: Can't get singers input gain to unity without feedback

Postby Sam Spoons » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:15 pm

Not sure I entirely agree Hugh. Reverb in the monitors is nice but a professional singer should be able to produce a 'professional' performance without if it is causing problems or simply impracticable on a small rig (i.e. 'ask' but not 'insist').
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Re: Can't get singers input gain to unity without feedback

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:26 pm

I take your point Sam, and without being there in person we can't judge the tone of the request. One person's polite request could easily be interpreted by someone feeling under pressure as an insistence...

But I really wouldn't consider monitor reverb unreasonable in this day and age with the prevalence of current budget digital consoles, and it's really not hard to arrange with an old analogue board either...

Yes, of course a pro singer should be able to cope without... But then a pro singer might also expect professional standards of sound engineering too... ;-)
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Re: Can't get singers input gain to unity without feedback

Postby zenguitar » Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:24 am

Might be worth band-passing the reverb feed to remove the low end and high end, and then negotiating a lower level of reverb in the monitors as well.

If the turns in my local pub are anything to go by, excessive vocal reverb is the norm for semi-pro's these days. Even with the good singers the vocal is indestinct because the reverb pushes it to the back of the sound stage.

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Re: Can't get singers input gain to unity without feedback

Postby ef37a » Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:35 am

zenguitar wrote:Might be worth band passing the reverb feed to remove the low end and high end, and then negotiating a lower level of reverb in the monitors as well.

If the turns in my local pub are anything to go by, excessive vocal reverb is the norm for semi-pro's these days. Even with the good singers the vocal is indestinct because the reverb pushes it to the back of the sound stage.

Andy :beamup:

Yes, it is probably the LEVEL of reverb she wants (insists!) upon that is the problem. Maybe it can be made "wetter" but at a lower level?

As for "Pro sound techs"? I think most guys here have been around the Ole PA Mulberry bush long enough to know that "If it ain't loud enough, ain't a lot a body can do"!

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Re: Can't get singers input gain to unity without feedback

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:56 am

I think we're entering the realms of fantasy-problem-solving here, and debating complex issues that the OP doesn't actually have.

The original problem, was described thus:

Previous singer input gain was 'unity' (?) or higher, and channel fader at unity or maybe +2db.

Current singer input gain can't go beyond -10 or -5dB without feedback, and the fader is at +7dB to get enough level from the PA.

It seems to me that there is a major gain-structure difference here in the foldback monitor chain, and that's what needs to be explored and addressed before worrying about niceties like comfort reverb.

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Re: Can't get singers input gain to unity without feedback

Postby Wonks » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:02 am

However, I'd still check that there is a reasonable amount of pre-delay set on the vocal reverb to help with the vocal clarity.
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Re: Can't get singers input gain to unity without feedback

Postby Dave Rowles » Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:24 pm

One thing that you should do, which hasn't been mentioned here is:

Reset to zero, and start again.

If you're running with previous settings then there could be something that's going somewhere that's causing the problem. Taking all the settings and sends to zero and starting again will probably highlight what's going wrong.

I would get her to sing with the mic and get it to where you need it in the FOH first. Then dial it into the monitors as needed.

If she's on IEM only then there's no real reason not to give her reverb. I usually do my best to discourage reverb in wedge monitors though.

Lastly, I hate Beta58a mics (Which is what you are using. SM58s don't have an A after the name). I really dislike the way they sound, and I've not really encountered that many singers that the mic actually suits. I've always got better results with the standard SM58.
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Re: Can't get singers input gain to unity without feedback

Postby ef37a » Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:37 am

Sorry but I see no "fantasy" here?

The fact has emerged that the singer gets in ear, reverb fold back. Such fold back will cause her to sing less loudly if the signal is too strong.

Good idea to go back to a basic setup, if indeed the feedback limit for the new vocalist is lower then some "difficult" words might need to be spoken to the rest of the band!

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Re: Can't get singers input gain to unity without feedback

Postby Sam Spoons » Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:30 am

Just a thought, if she's on IEMs then there is no need for reverb in the wedges?
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