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Loudness - more than LUFS/LKFS but measuring SPL other than A or C weighting

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Re: Loudness - more than LUFS/LKFS but measuring SPL other than A or C weighting

Postby Bob Bickerton » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:28 pm

hobbyist wrote:
Bob Bickerton wrote:
hobbyist wrote:
Bob Bickerton wrote:That’s really oversimplifying the situation.

Some people like to hear music at higher volumes, others prefer lower volumes and reducing dynamic range isn’t going to help!

Bob


Lowering DR allows us to have sufficient volume for intelligibility on voice while keeping the high end low enough to be safe.

Which does not address the issue that some like it loud, some do not..........

Bob

It directly addresses it.

The too loud folks are complaining about the loud end.
The too soft folks are complaining about the speech on the low end.

COMPRESS it all UPwards at the low end and normally at the high end.
Then the loudness issue would be easily fixed with slight tweaks of the result if any were still needed.

OK just to entertain your posit for a moment:

If you process the audio as you suggest and play it back at whatever level YOU think is appropriate - do you think it’s possible that some people will still think it’s too loud and others will think it’s too quiet?

If not pray tell what your magic SPL level is, how you manage to select people who all agree on what the optimum level should be and how it is possible that you manage to seat your entire audience at the same distance from the sound system.

Bob
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Re: Loudness - more than LUFS/LKFS but measuring SPL other than A or C weighting

Postby CS70 » Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:10 am

Bob Bickerton wrote:
OK just to entertain your posit for a moment:

If you process the audio as you suggest and play it back at whatever level YOU think is appropriate - do you think it’s possible that some people will still think it’s too loud and others will think it’s too quiet?

If not pray tell what your magic SPL level is, how you manage to select people who all agree on what the optimum level should be and how it is possible that you manage to seat your entire audience at the same distance from the sound system.

Bob

Chuck Norris does not select the right SPL level for people's ears, but people's ears immediately adjust to the SPL level selected by Chuck Norris. :mrgreen:
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Re: Loudness - more than LUFS/LKFS but measuring SPL other than A or C weighting

Postby hobbyist » Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:24 pm

Bob Bickerton wrote:
hobbyist wrote:
Bob Bickerton wrote:
hobbyist wrote:
Bob Bickerton wrote:That’s really oversimplifying the situation.

Some people like to hear music at higher volumes, others prefer lower volumes and reducing dynamic range isn’t going to help!

Bob


Lowering DR allows us to have sufficient volume for intelligibility on voice while keeping the high end low enough to be safe.

Which does not address the issue that some like it loud, some do not..........

Bob

It directly addresses it.

The too loud folks are complaining about the loud end.
The too soft folks are complaining about the speech on the low end.

COMPRESS it all UPwards at the low end and normally at the high end.
Then the loudness issue would be easily fixed with slight tweaks of the result if any were still needed.

OK just to entertain your posit for a moment:

If you process the audio as you suggest and play it back at whatever level YOU think is appropriate - do you think it’s possible that some people will still think it’s too loud and others will think it’s too quiet?

If not pray tell what your magic SPL level is, how you manage to select people who all agree on what the optimum level should be and how it is possible that you manage to seat your entire audience at the same distance from the sound system.

Bob

I think there is a reasonably wide range in the middle that would satisfy almost everyone *if* we got rid of the extreme loud on the top and we pulled up the extreme lows on the bottom of the SPL range.

If not, there would still be more people that are happy.


How many people say anything about where the average is anyway?

Some complain about loud. Some complain about soft. Never heard a complaint about the average.
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Re: Loudness - more than LUFS/LKFS but measuring SPL other than A or C weighting

Postby Bob Bickerton » Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:49 pm

Bob wrote:
OK just to entertain your posit for a moment:

If you process the audio as you suggest and play it back at whatever level YOU think is appropriate - do you think it’s possible that some people will still think it’s too loud and others will think it’s too quiet?

If not pray tell what your magic SPL level is, how you manage to select people who all agree on what the optimum level should be and how it is possible that you manage to seat your entire audience at the same distance from the sound system.

Bob

hobbyist wrote:I think there is a reasonably wide range in the middle that would satisfy almost everyone *if* we got rid of the extreme loud on the top and we pulled up the extreme lows on the bottom of the SPL range.

If not, there would still be more people that are happy.


How many people say anything about where the average is anyway?

Some complain about loud. Some complain about soft. Never heard a complaint about the average.

You have avoided answering my question - what is this magic SPL you speak of that satisfies everyone and also how do you manage to deliver it to every seat in the house?

I believe you do not have an answer..........

Bob
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Re: Loudness - more than LUFS/LKFS but measuring SPL other than A or C weighting

Postby AlecSp » Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:53 pm

hobbyist wrote:Some complain about loud. Some complain about soft. Never heard a complaint about the average.

You can continue to put forward this idea as long as you like. The only way to attempt to prove it is to try it out practically with a decent sized population of punters, firstly with unprocessed music where you have complaints from some that it's too loud, and from others that it's too quiet. Then introduce your magic processing and see what the responses are. I and everyone else confidently predict that you still won't have happy punters, but would love to hear if the result goes the way you expect.

And don't forget that losing all the dynamic range will also make it sound crap.
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Re: Loudness - more than LUFS/LKFS but measuring SPL other than A or C weighting

Postby hobbyist » Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:59 pm

Bob Bickerton wrote:
Bob wrote:
OK just to entertain your posit for a moment:

If you process the audio as you suggest and play it back at whatever level YOU think is appropriate - do you think it’s possible that some people will still think it’s too loud and others will think it’s too quiet?

If not pray tell what your magic SPL level is, how you manage to select people who all agree on what the optimum level should be and how it is possible that you manage to seat your entire audience at the same distance from the sound system.

Bob


hobbyist wrote:I think there is a reasonably wide range in the middle that would satisfy almost everyone *if* we got rid of the extreme loud on the top and we pulled up the extreme lows on the bottom of the SPL range.

If not, there would still be more people that are happy.

How many people say anything about where the average is anyway?

Some complain about loud. Some complain about soft. Never heard a complaint about the average.

You have avoided answering my question - what is this magic SPL you speak of that satisfies everyone and also how do you manage to deliver it to every seat in the house?

I believe you do not have an answer..........

Bob

You can believe anything you want.

Nothing magic. Just use your ear and be reasonable.

However, I would say from reading tech papers for max intelligibility that 65dB would be spot on.
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Re: Loudness - more than LUFS/LKFS but measuring SPL other than A or C weighting

Postby hobbyist » Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:04 pm

AlecSp wrote:
hobbyist wrote:Some complain about loud. Some complain about soft. Never heard a complaint about the average.

You can continue to put forward this idea as long as you like. The only way to attempt to prove it is to try it out practically with a decent sized population of punters, firstly with unprocessed music where you have complaints from some that it's too loud, and from others that it's too quiet. Then introduce your magic processing and see what the responses are. I and everyone else confidently predict that you still won't have happy punters, but would love to hear if the result goes the way you expect.

And don't forget that losing all the dynamic range will also make it sound crap.

In your opinion. Not everybody likes a lot of DR.

Why else would modern pop be typically only 4dB DR while people still love it.

I know that the DR range we have had was worse than crap.

I am working on the music director at our church to do all this.
When we succeed in doing it I will let you know how it was received.

I already got them to put compression on the louder end so it is quite a bit less now. Some feedback problems helped me sell that idea:)

Selling some upwards compression on the pastor might take more work but I am hopeful we will do it. Another guest speaker like one we had who whispers and then shouts, so much more than our regular guy does, might help the case.
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Re: Loudness - more than LUFS/LKFS but measuring SPL other than A or C weighting

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:13 pm

hobbyist wrote:Why else would modern pop be typically only 4dB DR while people still love it.

The reasons are very well known... And, in fact, you've just linked to an article that not only explains the reason, it also pointed out all the associated problems and widespread dissatisfaction with such a dismally small dynamic range!

H
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Re: Loudness - more than LUFS/LKFS but measuring SPL other than A or C weighting

Postby AlecSp » Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:43 pm

hobbyist wrote:I am working on the music director at our church to do all this.
When we succeed in doing it I will let you know how it was received.
But surely, if the technique's going to be so successful, why do you need to work on him. Just do it, and then he'll be impressed when everyone says how wonderful it is and how it's improved their experience as a punter.

hobbyist wrote:I already got them to put compression on the louder end so it is quite a bit less now. Some feedback problems helped me sell that idea:)
Because compression is well renowned for resolving feedback problems...
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Re: Loudness - more than LUFS/LKFS but measuring SPL other than A or C weighting

Postby hobbyist » Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:40 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:
hobbyist wrote:Why else would modern pop be typically only 4dB DR while people still love it.

The reasons are very well known... And, in fact, you've just linked to an article that not only explains the reason, it also pointed out all the associated problems and widespread dissatisfaction with such a dismally small dynamic range!

H

And yet they kept consuming that product and media kept playing it.
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Re: Loudness - more than LUFS/LKFS but measuring SPL other than A or C weighting

Postby hobbyist » Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:42 pm

AlecSp wrote:
hobbyist wrote:I am working on the music director at our church to do all this.
When we succeed in doing it I will let you know how it was received.
But surely, if the technique's going to be so successful, why do you need to work on him. Just do it, and then he'll be impressed when everyone says how wonderful it is and how it's improved their experience as a punter.

hobbyist wrote:I already got them to put compression on the louder end so it is quite a bit less now. Some feedback problems helped me sell that idea:)
Because compression is well renowned for resolving feedback problems...


I have no way to change anything on the board by myself.

And I would not just do it without his approval as he is in charge and responsible for everything that happens.

Yes. The high end compression was a gimme.
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Re: Loudness - more than LUFS/LKFS but measuring SPL other than A or C weighting

Postby Sam Spoons » Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:05 am

Dynamic range is the life in music, without it's just noise. There may be some defence for reduced DR in a noisy environment like a car when listening to classical or acoustic music.

I have edited the above to reflect the fact that you may (or may not) have a hearing condition similar to that suggested in the other thread, if so you have my sympathy and I hope you can find solutions that improve things for you

WRT your preacher vs. your choir, that is a tech/performance issue, the preacher needs to learn to 'perform' rather than just talk (though getting him to do so may be an uphill struggle) but, IME, if the 'performer' has something interesting to say the audience/congregation will shut up and listen.

FWIW I have heard two guys with unamplified acoustic guitars captivate an audience in a 1500 seat auditorium in the middle of a lively country rock band set. The DR between the acoustic tuns and the band in full flight was way more than one would usually experience but you could have heard a pin drop in the acoustic spot and you could hear every note.
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Re: Loudness - more than LUFS/LKFS but measuring SPL other than A or C weighting

Postby Bob Bickerton » Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:09 am

hobbyist wrote:
Bob Bickerton wrote:
Bob wrote:
OK just to entertain your posit for a moment:

If you process the audio as you suggest and play it back at whatever level YOU think is appropriate - do you think it’s possible that some people will still think it’s too loud and others will think it’s too quiet?

If not pray tell what your magic SPL level is, how you manage to select people who all agree on what the optimum level should be and how it is possible that you manage to seat your entire audience at the same distance from the sound system.

Bob


hobbyist wrote:I think there is a reasonably wide range in the middle that would satisfy almost everyone *if* we got rid of the extreme loud on the top and we pulled up the extreme lows on the bottom of the SPL range.

If not, there would still be more people that are happy.

How many people say anything about where the average is anyway?

Some complain about loud. Some complain about soft. Never heard a complaint about the average.

You have avoided answering my question - what is this magic SPL you speak of that satisfies everyone and also how do you manage to deliver it to every seat in the house?

I believe you do not have an answer..........

Bob

You can believe anything you want.

Nothing magic. Just use your ear and be reasonable.

However, I would say from reading tech papers for max intelligibility that 65dB would be spot on.

So you don’t have an answer - just quoting an internet search again. Ah well......

Bob
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Re: Loudness - more than LUFS/LKFS but measuring SPL other than A or C weighting

Postby hobbyist » Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:15 am

Bob Bickerton wrote:
hobbyist wrote:
Bob Bickerton wrote:
Bob wrote:
OK just to entertain your posit for a moment:

If you process the audio as you suggest and play it back at whatever level YOU think is appropriate - do you think it’s possible that some people will still think it’s too loud and others will think it’s too quiet?

If not pray tell what your magic SPL level is, how you manage to select people who all agree on what the optimum level should be and how it is possible that you manage to seat your entire audience at the same distance from the sound system.

Bob


hobbyist wrote:I think there is a reasonably wide range in the middle that would satisfy almost everyone *if* we got rid of the extreme loud on the top and we pulled up the extreme lows on the bottom of the SPL range.

If not, there would still be more people that are happy.

How many people say anything about where the average is anyway?

Some complain about loud. Some complain about soft. Never heard a complaint about the average.

You have avoided answering my question - what is this magic SPL you speak of that satisfies everyone and also how do you manage to deliver it to every seat in the house?

I believe you do not have an answer..........

Bob

You can believe anything you want.

Nothing magic. Just use your ear and be reasonable.

However, I would say from reading tech papers for max intelligibility that 65dB would be spot on.

So you don’t have an answer - just quoting an internet search again. Ah well......

Bob

I do not have proof yet.
But I believe just as firmly that I am right as you do the opposite.

You have nothing nada zip zilch squat bubkes zero ......

I have a tech paper based on measured data that says what the appropriate SPL level is for us. I trust that more than your blatant putdown attempts.
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Re: Loudness - more than LUFS/LKFS but measuring SPL other than A or C weighting

Postby Bob Bickerton » Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:29 am

Perhaps real world experience counts for something?

Bob
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Re: Loudness - more than LUFS/LKFS but measuring SPL other than A or C weighting

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:49 am

I don't see any point in pursuing this any further gents... We are beyond all reason and sense!

H
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