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Thoughts/advice on new potential new PA setup

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Thoughts/advice on new potential new PA setup

Postby BlackAngel1966 » Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:58 pm

Hi there. I’ve posted a similar thread recently on this but thought I’d start afresh.
I’m looking to upgrade my bands PA system. We currently run a Yamaha stagepas 600 and for the most part it’s been great, although it can lack clarity and headroom/volume in certain venues we play in. We also use 2 x Alto floor monitors...which are pretty decent, and 2 x shure sm58 mics for vocals. We are a pretty loud 3 piece rock band but only ever put the 2 vocal mics through the PA. No drums, no guitar and no bass. We play in small pubs and clubs to audiences up to a maximum of about 50 to (at a push) maybe 100 people.
Any new PA speakers must add better clarity and more volume than our current setup. However it MUST be portable and preferably smaller in dimensions and weight than the stagepas. I am liking the look of the QSC K8.2 as they fit the bill (on paper) for what I think I’m looking for. My question is has anyone here used these speakers for FOH in a pretty loud rock band for just vocals, and did they perform well or not. If I went for 10 or 12 inch drivers would I realistically see a significant betterment in volume and clarity bearing in mind we will only use these speakers for vocals? Thanks.
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Re: Thoughts/advice on new potential new PA setup

Postby AlecSp » Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:30 pm

Before we start....

Two things you have to remember:
- You can't overcome the laws of physics.
- You can choose any two out of high performance, cheap, compact/light.

Sorry to disillusion you, but a reality check - your Alto monitors (you don't specify which model, which would have been helpful) aren't really "decent", they're no more than not bad for the money, which is pretty cheap. If that's your idea of decent, then you're aiming low - albeit saving money.

We already ascertained earlier that your band is loud, so there's no point in settling for anything that can't compete. Although, of course, better still would be more control over your on-stage level.

Now back to your question: While I haven't played with the QSC 8.2s, given that your band is already too loud, I suspect that you'd be disappointed with them. Good 10s or 12s are where you want to be for a vocal-only PA, or with subs.

So, look at the K10.2 and K12.2, but also some of the options from Yamaha & RCF that have previously been suggested. However, only 10s will get down to the weight you want. Ultimately, you have to decide whether to compromise on weight or performance.

I will point out that, if the location works for you, the RCF ART 722s listed here on eBay are screaming bargains at £300 each. With their larger HF driver, they bring the crossover point right down, to let the HF driver handle most of the vocal duties, which makes them some of the best in their £800-£1,200 price range. I have a pair, and they're ace.

But also, as pointed out in your last thread, be sure first of all that it's FOH giving you problems - are you *sure* it's not your monitoring feeding back. And balancing your stage volume better will pay huge dividends.
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Re: Thoughts/advice on new potential new PA setup

Postby BlackAngel1966 » Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:09 pm

AlecSp wrote:Before we start....

Two things you have to remember:
- You can't overcome the laws of physics.
- You can choose any two out of high performance, cheap, compact/light.

Sorry to disillusion you, but a reality check - your Alto monitors (you don't specify which model, which would have been helpful) aren't really "decent", they're no more than not bad for the money, which is pretty cheap. If that's your idea of decent, then you're aiming low - albeit saving money.

We already ascertained earlier that your band is loud, so there's no point in settling for anything that can't compete. Although, of course, better still would be more control over your on-stage level.

Now back to your question: While I haven't played with the QSC 8.2s, given that your band is already too loud, I suspect that you'd be disappointed with them. Good 10s or 12s are where you want to be for a vocal-only PA, or with subs.

So, look at the K10.2 and K12.2, but also some of the options from Yamaha & RCF that have previously been suggested. However, only 10s will get down to the weight you want. Ultimately, you have to decide whether to compromise on weight or performance.

I will point out that, if the location works for you, the RCF ART 722s listed here on eBay are screaming bargains at £300 each. With their larger HF driver, they bring the crossover point right down, to let the HF driver handle most of the vocal duties, which makes them some of the best in their £800-£1,200 price range. I have a pair, and they're ace.

But also, as pointed out in your last thread, be sure first of all that it's FOH giving you problems - are you *sure* it's not your monitoring feeding back. And balancing your stage volume better will pay huge dividends.

Your comments are appreciated sir and I assure you I don’t think I’m trying to overcome the laws of physics. I just want something pretty loud and pretty portable for a three piece rock band playing small pub gigs.....and I think it exists...well according to the internet it does. Folk concentrated more on The feedback/loud drummer/loud band comments from my last post, which was a bit of a red herring as feedback only occurs very occasionally and is down to poor (but sometimes unavoidable due to venue constraints) positioning of FOH speakers and floor monitors. Hence I started this new thread.
The alto floor monitors are ts208s and for the money I think they perform ok. Small, lightweight and provide reasonable (not brilliant...I know you get what you pay for) vocal monitoring. I am not “disillusioned” or “aiming low”, I just don’t have huge pots of money to Chuck at this. It could be that replacing the altos with the QSCs or similar by Yamaha etc may greatly improve our vocal monitoring, and that may be a route I could follow, but given what I’ve said earlier about positioning issues in some venues would it be a lot of money spent for not much benefit?
I take what you say about the k8.2 vs say the 10 or 12 or similar for FOH, however, am I really , honestly, in the real world, in front of a small bunch of drunk audience members, gonna hear a significant difference in clarity, tone and volume between the 8 and the 10 given it is exclusively for vocals? And I’m not sure why a sub would be required in our setup because of the same reason?
Upgrading or replacing my PA is likely to cost a fair amount of money so I want to try and get it right, BUT. I don’t have a huge budget AND I can’t haul a large set up around. So....bearing in mind I am a guitar player and not an expert in live sound etc, any basic advice on a simple, portable and good quality, setup would be appreciated. Sort of “I use Yamaha dxr10s in my rock band and they are ace (or not!) That’s my level. Cheers.
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Re: Thoughts/advice on new potential new PA setup

Postby Sam Spoons » Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:30 pm

BlackAngel1966 wrote:Upgrading or replacing my PA is likely to cost a fair amount of money so I want to try and get it right, BUT. I don’t have a huge budget AND I can’t haul a large set up around. So....bearing in mind I am a guitar player and not an expert in live sound etc, any basic advice on a simple, portable and good quality, setup would be appreciated. Sort of “I use Yamaha dxr10s in my rock band and they are ace (or not!) That’s my level. Cheers.

Which is exactly what I said in your other thread :D
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Re: Thoughts/advice on new potential new PA setup

Postby Wonks » Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:05 pm

The QSC K8.2s have a max. SPL of 128dB. The DXR10s have a max. SPL of 132dB. That's 4dB louder which is a significant increase in volume.

Smaller speakers just aren't as efficient as bigger ones, so if you want more volume, you need to look at larger speakers.

So to ensure you have the most volume available, but still in a compact package, I'd go for the DXR 10s over the QSC K8.2s.

If you were a small acoustic act, then the QSCs are probably all you need and would probably have a slightly higher fidelity to the sound.

But with a limited budget and space considerations, I'd definitely go the DXR10 route.
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Re: Thoughts/advice on new potential new PA setup

Postby Sam Spoons » Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:48 pm

Yup, me too, I bought QSC K12's 'cos I loved the sound on acoustic music. But, they get used for everything including, with a 15" sub, FOH for a couple of rock bands on a beach with an audience of 500 over the bank holiday weekend. Many complements about the sound and my DXR10's did a great job as monitors. If you need to keep the budget a bit tight then DXR10's would be my recommendation.

If you can get them in budget though those RCF ART 722's Alex linked to are very good indeed. New ones were way over my budget when I bought my K12's and DXR10's or I may have ended up with a pair myself.

edit, sorely tempted, spectacular value at £360 each BIN but I'm semi retired and don't really need them.....
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Re: Thoughts/advice on new potential new PA setup

Postby AlecSp » Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:48 pm

BlackAngel1966 wrote:I take what you say about the k8.2 vs say the 10 or 12 or similar for FOH, however, am I really , honestly, in the real world, in front of a small bunch of drunk audience members, gonna hear a significant difference in clarity, tone and volume between the 8 and the 10 given it is exclusively for vocals?
Completely understand - we can't escape budgets. Another option for you is do nothing, i.e., spend nothing. Are you losing bookings with your current PA. I've seen plenty of pub bands with crappy PAs, who are still getting paid. And they're probably netting more than the ones with quality PAs. In the end, don't forget profit & loss.

BlackAngel1966 wrote:And I’m not sure why a sub would be required in our setup because of the same reason?
You're right, you don't need subs. For clarity "Good 10s or 12s are where you want to be for a vocal-only PA, or with subs [for a full-range PA]"

BlackAngel1966 wrote:Upgrading or replacing my PA is likely to cost a fair amount of money so I want to try and get it right, BUT. I don’t have a huge budget AND I can’t haul a large set up around. So....bearing in mind I am a guitar player and not an expert in live sound etc, any basic advice on a simple, portable and good quality, setup would be appreciated. Sort of “I use Yamaha dxr10s in my rock band and they are ace (or not!) That’s my level. Cheers.
Well, both in the last thread and this one, we have. I've told you RCF ART 722s are fab, and given you the technical reasons why they're head and shoulders against the slightly cheaper competition, as well as pointing out where you can buy them used for the same price as you'd pay for an Alto TS212 - and the 722s are honestly in a completely different league.
I've also pointed out that my ART 710s are great, smaller, lighter and cheaper - and hugely suitable for a vocal only PA.

We're all trying to help, honest.

But, 8" MI speakers for a rock band? Really, just no...
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Re: Thoughts/advice on new potential new PA setup

Postby Sam Spoons » Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:01 pm

Yup :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
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Re: Thoughts/advice on new potential new PA setup

Postby DanR » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:15 pm

BlackAngel1966 wrote:Any new PA speakers must add better clarity and more volume than our current setup. However it MUST be portable and preferably smaller in dimensions and weight than the stagepas.

You want better clarity, more volume yet smaller and lighter than the StagePas?
Maybe achievable for a folk duo or similar but for a loud rock band, you’ve got to be looking at 10” speakers minimum.
As AlecSp said, don’t go 8”.
DXR10s best bet for price/power or look at RCF Art 710 or HD10 mkiv (smaller than DXR10).
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Re: Thoughts/advice on new potential new PA setup

Postby ben howes » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:39 pm

AlecSp wrote:
BlackAngel1966 wrote:I take what you say about the k8.2 vs say the 10 or 12 or similar for FOH, however, am I really , honestly, in the real world, in front of a small bunch of drunk audience members, gonna hear a significant difference in clarity, tone and volume between the 8 and the 10 given it is exclusively for vocals?
Completely understand - we can't escape budgets. Another option for you is do nothing, i.e., spend nothing. Are you losing bookings with your current PA. I've seen plenty of pub bands with crappy PAs, who are still getting paid. And they're probably netting more than the ones with quality PAs. In the end, don't forget profit & loss.

BlackAngel1966 wrote:And I’m not sure why a sub would be required in our setup because of the same reason?
You're right, you don't need subs. For clarity "Good 10s or 12s are where you want to be for a vocal-only PA, or with subs [for a full-range PA]"

BlackAngel1966 wrote:Upgrading or replacing my PA is likely to cost a fair amount of money so I want to try and get it right, BUT. I don’t have a huge budget AND I can’t haul a large set up around. So....bearing in mind I am a guitar player and not an expert in live sound etc, any basic advice on a simple, portable and good quality, setup would be appreciated. Sort of “I use Yamaha dxr10s in my rock band and they are ace (or not!) That’s my level. Cheers.
Well, both in the last thread and this one, we have. I've told you RCF ART 722s are fab, and given you the technical reasons why they're head and shoulders against the slightly cheaper competition, as well as pointing out where you can buy them used for the same price as you'd pay for an Alto TS212 - and the 722s are honestly in a completely different league.
I've also pointed out that my ART 710s are great, smaller, lighter and cheaper - and hugely suitable for a vocal only PA.

We're all trying to help, honest.

But, 8" MI speakers for a rock band? Really, just no...
Thanks very much for your tip about the RCF speakers. I've taken your advice, only 2 left now - take note OP!
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Re: Thoughts/advice on new potential new PA setup

Postby AlecSp » Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:27 pm

ben howes wrote:Thanks very much for your tip about the RCF speakers. I've taken your advice, only 2 left now - take note OP!
Never did hear back from the OP to see how he got on, or whether any of the advice was useful/taken.

On the other hand, how have you found your RCF ART 722s, three months on?
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Re: Thoughts/advice on new potential new PA setup

Postby ben howes » Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:50 am

Hi, it's been a bit quiet so only one gig to report. We simplified the vocals signal path , so changed several variables. But our expert audience members said the vocals were much clearer than in recent gigs. We did not struggle with feedback which has been a problem. I sadly can't give my opinion as I was on the drum stool with iem...
Overall , I'm confident these speakers are a good upgrade on the alto ts12a we've been using.
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Re: Thoughts/advice on new potential new PA setup

Postby Sam Spoons » Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:55 am

Good news, I'm sure they have been a significant upgrade. The Alto's sound good for the money but the RCFs are in different league (and retail at four times the price of the Altos).

:thumbup:
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Re: Thoughts/advice on new potential new PA setup

Postby ben howes » Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:40 pm

If only the input signal could be upgraded simply by chucking money at it!
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Re: Thoughts/advice on new potential new PA setup

Postby Wonks » Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:43 pm

It can. Just hire pro session musos to do all the playing and singing for you, sit in the audience and enjoy! :D
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