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PA Live sound advice needed please

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Re: PA Live sound advice needed please

Postby Shortie4291 » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:28 pm

Wonks wrote:Sounds like everything is connected correctly,

I'd probably set the Typhon input volume to 12 o'clock (unity gain) and try and send a slightly hotter signal from the mixer. But 1 o'clock is probably only 1dB extra gain added at the speaker, so a minimal value. Mixer output levels can happily run at +3 or even +6 on the output meter, and should need to be to get the maximum volume from the speakers with the speaker gain set to 12 o'clock.

With the mixer output meters running at or below 0 and the speaker input gain at 12 o'clock, you certainly shouldn't get any limit indications on the speaker. If you do, there's something wrong somewhere.

Or it may be that the limiter is cutting in a bit earlier than it could do to protect the amp from clipping. If the limit LED is just just coming on occasionally, I wouldn't worry about it. But if it's coming on all the time, then the speakers are certainly outputting all they can. All I can think of is that the Typhons aren't quite as loud as they are quoted to be.

I had Yamaha DXR10 Mk Is which peaked at a SPL of 131dB and they would be more than enough for pubs and clubs and any small-medium sized venue

You do get what you pay for, and I'd be tempted to step up to some Yamaha DXR12 Mk IIs with a SPL of 134dB. SPL is the true measure of speaker output, not its amp wattage rating, so when comparing speakers, compare their SPL values, not their watts. The DXR12s are currently about £100 more per speaker than the Typhons, but you do get a 7 year warranty in the UK (after registration). And that 5 extra dB of SPL (134dB vs 129db) means that the Yamahas are significantly louder than the Typhons - getting on for twice the volume. They are slightly heavier at 18.6kg vs. 16.2kg, but should still be manageable.

I will try as you suggest on Saturday night but I now have my eye on the Beringher DR115DSP which is 136 dbs,? Any thoughts. I'm really at my max budget at the moment with winter season coming which is quiet.
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Re: PA Live sound advice needed please

Postby Shortie4291 » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:30 pm

Wonks wrote:
DanR wrote:I have the AKG WMS40 dual mic system. Used them for years but the channel is no longer available for radio mics.

The WMS40 Mini version used by the OP is a channel 70 only mic system. So it works in the still license-free band, albeit at risk of clashing with other nearby channel 70 users.

Dan, can you remember what the signal output level was, mic or line?

yes it works fine unless there's another wireless mic which I then have to switch off
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Re: PA Live sound advice needed please

Postby Wonks » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:52 pm

You do get what you pay for. I've just looked up those Behringers, and the figures just don't add up. To get a true 136dB, with the amp power stated, you'd need a speaker with around a 105dB @1w @ 1m efficiency. At best you'd normally get around 100dB efficiency (possibly a bit more if you forego a flattish frequency response). So I'd guess that their 136dB is really nearer 130dB in Yamaha terms.

The only way of really knowing is to try them out side by side, but I'd certainly bet that the DXR12s sound better and are much louder than those 15" Behringers. But the only way to know for sure is to try them out.

In this forum, we'd not normally recommend 15" speakers where vocal clarity is the main focus of the sound. The lower upper frequency response of a 15" speaker compared to a 10" or 12" speaker means that the crossover frequency between the main speaker and the horn driver comes down into the most important vocal frequency range, and they can sound a bit harsh with vocals in comparison to smaller-sized speakers.
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Re: PA Live sound advice needed please

Postby Shortie4291 » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:56 pm

Wonks wrote:You do get what you pay for. I've just looked up those Behringers, and the figures just don't add up. To get a true 136dB, with the amp power stated, you'd need a speaker with around a 105dB @1w @ 1m efficiency. At best you'd normally get around 100dB efficiency (possibly a bit more if you forego a flattish frequency response). So I'd guess that their 136dB is really nearer 130dB in Yamaha terms.

The only way of really knowing is to try them out side by side, but I'd certainly bet that the DXR12s sound better and are much louder than those 15" Behringers. But the only way to know for sure is to try them out.

In this forum, we'd not normally recommend 15" speakers where vocal clarity is the main focus of the sound. The lower upper frequency response of a 15" speaker compared to a 10" or 12" speaker means that the crossover frequency between the main speaker and the horn driver comes down into the most important vocal frequency range, and they can sound a bit harsh with vocals in comparison to smaller-sized speakers.

Ahh ok, that's great to know as I had it in my head that a 15 would give me more power. I'm maxed out on my budget sadly and I think the Yamahas are out of my prce range :(
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Re: PA Live sound advice needed please

Postby Wonks » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:58 pm

Is buying used an option, or are you tied in to G4M for returning gear and swapping?
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Re: PA Live sound advice needed please

Postby Shortie4291 » Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:06 pm

Wonks wrote:Is buying used an option, or are you tied in to G4M for returning gear and swapping?

I'm tied into the swapping hing with G4M really. I'm using a credit card and I'm very wary of used unless it has a warranty. I've been stung so many times with used. I bought a Mackie ProFX8 (or 12 I can't remember, it's in the loft) used and I can't get the reverb to work so that was a waste of money
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Re: PA Live sound advice needed please

Postby Wonks » Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:14 pm

A 15" is normally more efficient than a 10" or a12" speaker - just the sheer size of the cone helps it to move more air around - and that equates to more volume. So a lot of active speaker ranges will have the same power amp inside, but the 15" will produce a few more dB than the 10" with the 12" sitting in the middle due to the slightly more efficient speaker. But there are some compromises on the sound because of the speaker size.

For best sound quality for a smallish PA system, you are best going with 10" or 12" tops and subs.

If you are in a hairy-arsed rock 'n' roll band and vocal quality isn't paramount and you haven't got room for a sub, then 15" speakers are normally a good compromise because of their increased bass extension over smaller speakers.

But modern 10" and 12" speakers can produce surprisingly good amounts of bass (just not at chest thumping levels).
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Re: PA Live sound advice needed please

Postby DanR » Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:21 pm

Wonks wrote:
The WMS40 Mini version used by the OP is a channel 70 only mic system. So it works in the still license-free band, albeit at risk of clashing with other nearby channel 70 users.

Dan, can you remember what the signal output level was, mic or line?

Not too sure. It states ‘balanced’ on the back and has jack outputs.
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Re: PA Live sound advice needed please

Postby Wonks » Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:32 pm

I think it may be nearer line level at full blast. I just remembered I had the WMS40 receiver to go with an AKG guitar bug transmitter, and ran that into guitar pedals. Same receiver as the rest of that wireless range. So definitely more than mic level.
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Re: PA Live sound advice needed please

Postby Shortie4291 » Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:32 pm

Right, just had a look on G4M and I can afford the Mk1s not the Mk2s of the Yamaha DXR12, what do you guys think?

Specifications
Speaker Type: 12" 2-way, Bi-Amp Powered Speaker, Bass-Reflex Type
Frequency Range (-10dB): 52Hz - 20kHz
Nominal Coverage: H 90° V 60°
Components
LF: 12" Cone, 2.5" Voice Coil, Ferrite Magnet
HF: 1.4" Compression Driver, Ferrite Magnet
Crossover: FIR-X Tuning (Linear Phase FIR Filter)
Output Power: Dynamic: 1100W (LF: 950W HF: 150W) / Continuous: 700W (LF: 600W HF: 100W)
Maximum Output Level: 132dB SPL
Connectors:
Input 1: XLR-3-31 x1
Input 2: Phone x2
Input 3: RCA PIN x 2
Thru: XLR3-32 x 1 (Parallel With Input 1)
Link Out: XLR x 1
Processors: D-CONTOUR: FOH/MAIN, Monitor, Off
Power Requirements: 100V - 240V, 50Hz/60 Hz
Power Consumption: 110W
Flying And Mounting Hardware: Top x2, Rear x1 (Fits For M10 x 18mm Eyebolts)
Pole Socket: 35mm With 2-way Features (0° or 7°)
Dimensions
Height: 601 mm
Width: 362 mm
Depth: 350 mm
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Re: PA Live sound advice needed please

Postby Wonks » Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:41 pm

If you can, then I really suggest you get them. They should be a lot better and louder than the Wharfdales. I'm sure you'd like them. The only real difference between the Mk 1 and Mk 2 is that the Mk2s have a slightly larger voice-coil tweeter.

If you can't get enough volume into the venues with those, then you won't do it without a much larger and more expensive PA, including subs.

But I'm sure you will.
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Re: PA Live sound advice needed please

Postby Shortie4291 » Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:44 pm

Thank you for all your advice
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Re: PA Live sound advice needed please

Postby DanR » Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:00 pm

Those will be far better than the Wharfedales. Bags of power and quite compact.
Hopefully will be ok to manage at around 18kg.
You’ll have a full 2k Yamaha PA then :thumbup:
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Re: PA Live sound advice needed please

Postby Shortie4291 » Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:37 pm

DanR wrote:Those will be far better than the Wharfedales. Bags of power and quite compact.
Hopefully will be ok to manage at around 18kg.
You’ll have a full 2k Yamaha PA then :thumbup:

yes I think I'm going to bite the bullet and sell a kidney or something and spend the extra £200
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Re: PA Live sound advice needed please

Postby Wonks » Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:52 pm

Hopefully better sound = happier punters = more gigs = more gig income!

All the best.
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Re: PA Live sound advice needed please

Postby Mike Stranks » Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:55 pm

Another :thumbup: for Yamaha DXRs...

... and just coming back (for Hugh) on MG06 output level... Yup! I was puzzled as the specs say it's standard +4... But I've had numerous mixers in my time, most rated at 0 = +4 (shorthand folks, shorthand) and it was far more 'spiky' than any of them.

One of life's little mysteries... :)
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Re: PA Live sound advice needed please

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:04 pm

:ugeek: Hmmm ...odd. Never used that Yamaha desk, but I'm intrigued now!
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Re: PA Live sound advice needed please

Postby Sam Spoons » Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:47 pm

Another here who would definitely go for the Yamaha's over the Behringers, well worth the extra cash IMHO. As I said, I have DXR10s and they are excellent, I would buy them again without reservation.

Definitely go for 10" or 12" speakers, vocals are the focus of your act and 15" don't sound great on vocals unless you go very expensive.
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Re: PA Live sound advice needed please

Postby AlecSp » Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:42 am

Just before everyone goes shopping with your hard earned money, I'm rather confused at the inability of, admittedly low range, speakers to cover small audiences with vocal & track performances. I'd expect to put in a couple of my RCF ART 710s for shows like that and to have ample headroom.

Where are you based? If local to any other folk, you may well find someone who can come out and give a second opinion, and perhaps let you try some of their kit to see/hear other options. More positively, it might be that you simply aren't using your current kit optimally. It may not be the best, but if it can be made to deliver for you, then that's a big saving over investing in new kit - albeit that new semi-decent kit is likely to give you an improvement.
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Re: PA Live sound advice needed please

Postby DanR » Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:50 pm

AlecSp wrote:Just before everyone goes shopping with your hard earned money, I'm rather confused at the inability of, admittedly low range, speakers to cover small audiences with vocal & track performances. I'd expect to put in a couple of my RCF ART 710s for shows like that and to have ample headroom.


Yes.
Looks like the Wharfedales have similar spec as the RCFs, apart from speaker size.
I think RCF's amps and drivers are more efficient and the 7 series are quite a step up from budget level.
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