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PA Live sound advice needed please

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Re: PA Live sound advice needed please

Postby Wonks » Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:11 am

It's just that a sub with the Typhons would allow the tops to be louder in the vocal range. But as subs are too heavy/large for you to manage on your own, then the DXR12s would be a much better overall solution.
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Re: PA Live sound advice needed please

Postby Sam Spoons » Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:16 am

Wonks wrote:It's just that a sub with the Typhons would allow the tops to be louder in the vocal range.

Yes it would :thumbup:

Wonks wrote:But as subs are too heavy/large for you to manage on your own, then the DXR12s would be a much better overall solution.

:thumbup:
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Re: PA Live sound advice needed please

Postby DanR » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:00 pm

Shortie4291 wrote:Hi all, I'm a gigging solo singer using backing tracks and playing in various size venues (pubs, working mens clubs, hotels, holiday parks etc). I've been searching for active PA speakers that don't peak all the time for ages.

I used to have 2 Wharfedale Pro EVP-X15P's. I think they were 250watt RMS, 500 peak each. (they're about 15 years old, current ones the spec is higher). They were brilliant and never peaked. the issue was that at 29KG each I couldn't lift them onto the stands (I'm a tiny woman.) so I always needed to ask for help. When the bass driver went in one of them, I bought 2 Wharfedale pro Titan 12s which I could easy lift onto the stands and used my remaining EVP-X15P floor based linked to one of the speakers to take the bottom end. This worked for ages.

Then the 2nd EVP gave up on me so I tried out a few speakers from Gear4music to do the same job that the EVP had been doing. My titans developed a fault and had to go back but couldn't be repaired of replace so I got a full refund (£410 for the pair). I then decided to spend a bit more and try and eliminate the need for a third speaker. I spent £750 on a pair of Wharfedale Pro Typhon AX12. 720Watt RMS and 1440 peak. I thought that these would be super powerful and there's no way they would peak. The music sounded great through them. Amazing in fact and nowhere near peaking, but my mic was still causing the red limit light to flash on. I'm using a Yamaha MG06X Analog Mixer and a AKG WMS40 Mini Wireless Vocal Microphone. All advice welcome, thanks in advance. I have 6 months to decide if I want to keep the Typhons or should I get something else, or can I set my mic up differently etc

Hi
I have the AKG WMS40 dual mic system. Used them for years but the channel is no longer available for radio mics.
Try rolling some bass off the mic EQ to help avoid speaker amp clipping or maybe try a lead mic, SM58 or similar if you can borrow one.
Adding a sub would help but I think money would be better spent on a pair of more powerful 10” or 12” speakers.
Time to have a break I think from Wharfedale powered speakers having tried 3 varieties.
The Typhon looks a decent speaker with quite high SPL although it’s a little low on power.

As your playing anything from small pub rooms to hotels and holiday parks, your PA needs to be sufficient for the larger rooms.
I think you might be out of gas with your current system.
It is a hassle selling gear but you would notice a big difference spending a bit more.
My RCF HD12s and Yamaha DXR10s are super powerful and easy to carry.
The RCFs are a little wider than the QSC K12 and Yamaha DXR12 but are lighter and have a top handle too as well as side ones.
They are more expensive than the Yamahas though.

DXR10s would do well for most gigs, are compact and good VFM. The 12s lack the top handle, are heavier but would handle the big rooms without the need for a sub.
If possible, try them for size/weight at a store.
Good luck.
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Re: PA Live sound advice needed please

Postby Wonks » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:05 pm

DanR wrote:I have the AKG WMS40 dual mic system. Used them for years but the channel is no longer available for radio mics.

The WMS40 Mini version used by the OP is a channel 70 only mic system. So it works in the still license-free band, albeit at risk of clashing with other nearby channel 70 users.

Dan, can you remember what the signal output level was, mic or line?
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Re: PA Live sound advice needed please

Postby Shortie4291 » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:08 pm

DanR wrote:
Shortie4291 wrote:
Hi
I have the AKG WMS40 dual mic system. Used them for years but the channel is no longer available for radio mics.
Try rolling some bass off the mic EQ to help avoid speaker amp clipping or maybe try a lead mic, SM58 or similar if you can borrow one.
Adding a sub would help but I think money would be better spent on a pair of more powerful 10” or 12” speakers.
Time to have a break I think from Wharfedale powered speakers having tried 3 varieties.
The Typhon looks a decent speaker with quite high SPL although it’s a little low on power.

As your playing anything from small pub rooms to hotels and holiday parks, your PA needs to be sufficient for the larger rooms.
I think you might be out of gas with your current system.
It is a hassle selling gear but you would notice a big difference spending a bit more.
My RCF HD12s and Yamaha DXR10s are super powerful and easy to carry.
The RCFs are a little wider than the QSC K12 and Yamaha DXR12 but are lighter and have a top handle too as well as side ones.
They are more expensive than the Yamahas though.

DXR10s would do well for most gigs, are compact and good VFM. The 12s lack the top handle, are heavier but would handle the big rooms without the need for a sub.
If possible, try them for size/weight at a store.
Good luck.

Hi Dan,
I'm not committed to these speakers, Gear4music will let me try them for 180 days before I keep them. I was wondering if I might try some Beringers that are 136 db and the same wattage as the wharfedales but are 15 inch cabs instead? Gear4music do the ones you recommend but they're 133 dbs and not quite as much wattage as the wharfedales or the Beringhers. The typhon is 1440 peak and 720 continuous, 129db. The DXR12 are 1100 peak, 700 continuous 133db, and the Beringhers DR115DSP are 1400 peak (RMS???) and 136 dbs (21kg but I could just about manage) or the 12 inch version of them is 134dbs and 1200 peak and are 17kg.
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Re: PA Live sound advice needed please

Postby Shortie4291 » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:28 pm

Wonks wrote:Sounds like everything is connected correctly,

I'd probably set the Typhon input volume to 12 o'clock (unity gain) and try and send a slightly hotter signal from the mixer. But 1 o'clock is probably only 1dB extra gain added at the speaker, so a minimal value. Mixer output levels can happily run at +3 or even +6 on the output meter, and should need to be to get the maximum volume from the speakers with the speaker gain set to 12 o'clock.

With the mixer output meters running at or below 0 and the speaker input gain at 12 o'clock, you certainly shouldn't get any limit indications on the speaker. If you do, there's something wrong somewhere.

Or it may be that the limiter is cutting in a bit earlier than it could do to protect the amp from clipping. If the limit LED is just just coming on occasionally, I wouldn't worry about it. But if it's coming on all the time, then the speakers are certainly outputting all they can. All I can think of is that the Typhons aren't quite as loud as they are quoted to be.

I had Yamaha DXR10 Mk Is which peaked at a SPL of 131dB and they would be more than enough for pubs and clubs and any small-medium sized venue

You do get what you pay for, and I'd be tempted to step up to some Yamaha DXR12 Mk IIs with a SPL of 134dB. SPL is the true measure of speaker output, not its amp wattage rating, so when comparing speakers, compare their SPL values, not their watts. The DXR12s are currently about £100 more per speaker than the Typhons, but you do get a 7 year warranty in the UK (after registration). And that 5 extra dB of SPL (134dB vs 129db) means that the Yamahas are significantly louder than the Typhons - getting on for twice the volume. They are slightly heavier at 18.6kg vs. 16.2kg, but should still be manageable.

I will try as you suggest on Saturday night but I now have my eye on the Beringher DR115DSP which is 136 dbs,? Any thoughts. I'm really at my max budget at the moment with winter season coming which is quiet.
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Re: PA Live sound advice needed please

Postby Shortie4291 » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:30 pm

Wonks wrote:
DanR wrote:I have the AKG WMS40 dual mic system. Used them for years but the channel is no longer available for radio mics.

The WMS40 Mini version used by the OP is a channel 70 only mic system. So it works in the still license-free band, albeit at risk of clashing with other nearby channel 70 users.

Dan, can you remember what the signal output level was, mic or line?

yes it works fine unless there's another wireless mic which I then have to switch off
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Re: PA Live sound advice needed please

Postby Wonks » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:52 pm

You do get what you pay for. I've just looked up those Behringers, and the figures just don't add up. To get a true 136dB, with the amp power stated, you'd need a speaker with around a 105dB @1w @ 1m efficiency. At best you'd normally get around 100dB efficiency (possibly a bit more if you forego a flattish frequency response). So I'd guess that their 136dB is really nearer 130dB in Yamaha terms.

The only way of really knowing is to try them out side by side, but I'd certainly bet that the DXR12s sound better and are much louder than those 15" Behringers. But the only way to know for sure is to try them out.

In this forum, we'd not normally recommend 15" speakers where vocal clarity is the main focus of the sound. The lower upper frequency response of a 15" speaker compared to a 10" or 12" speaker means that the crossover frequency between the main speaker and the horn driver comes down into the most important vocal frequency range, and they can sound a bit harsh with vocals in comparison to smaller-sized speakers.
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Re: PA Live sound advice needed please

Postby Shortie4291 » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:56 pm

Wonks wrote:You do get what you pay for. I've just looked up those Behringers, and the figures just don't add up. To get a true 136dB, with the amp power stated, you'd need a speaker with around a 105dB @1w @ 1m efficiency. At best you'd normally get around 100dB efficiency (possibly a bit more if you forego a flattish frequency response). So I'd guess that their 136dB is really nearer 130dB in Yamaha terms.

The only way of really knowing is to try them out side by side, but I'd certainly bet that the DXR12s sound better and are much louder than those 15" Behringers. But the only way to know for sure is to try them out.

In this forum, we'd not normally recommend 15" speakers where vocal clarity is the main focus of the sound. The lower upper frequency response of a 15" speaker compared to a 10" or 12" speaker means that the crossover frequency between the main speaker and the horn driver comes down into the most important vocal frequency range, and they can sound a bit harsh with vocals in comparison to smaller-sized speakers.

Ahh ok, that's great to know as I had it in my head that a 15 would give me more power. I'm maxed out on my budget sadly and I think the Yamahas are out of my prce range :(
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Re: PA Live sound advice needed please

Postby Wonks » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:58 pm

Is buying used an option, or are you tied in to G4M for returning gear and swapping?
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Re: PA Live sound advice needed please

Postby Shortie4291 » Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:06 pm

Wonks wrote:Is buying used an option, or are you tied in to G4M for returning gear and swapping?

I'm tied into the swapping hing with G4M really. I'm using a credit card and I'm very wary of used unless it has a warranty. I've been stung so many times with used. I bought a Mackie ProFX8 (or 12 I can't remember, it's in the loft) used and I can't get the reverb to work so that was a waste of money
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Re: PA Live sound advice needed please

Postby Wonks » Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:14 pm

A 15" is normally more efficient than a 10" or a12" speaker - just the sheer size of the cone helps it to move more air around - and that equates to more volume. So a lot of active speaker ranges will have the same power amp inside, but the 15" will produce a few more dB than the 10" with the 12" sitting in the middle due to the slightly more efficient speaker. But there are some compromises on the sound because of the speaker size.

For best sound quality for a smallish PA system, you are best going with 10" or 12" tops and subs.

If you are in a hairy-arsed rock 'n' roll band and vocal quality isn't paramount and you haven't got room for a sub, then 15" speakers are normally a good compromise because of their increased bass extension over smaller speakers.

But modern 10" and 12" speakers can produce surprisingly good amounts of bass (just not at chest thumping levels).
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Re: PA Live sound advice needed please

Postby DanR » Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:21 pm

Wonks wrote:
The WMS40 Mini version used by the OP is a channel 70 only mic system. So it works in the still license-free band, albeit at risk of clashing with other nearby channel 70 users.

Dan, can you remember what the signal output level was, mic or line?

Not too sure. It states ‘balanced’ on the back and has jack outputs.
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Re: PA Live sound advice needed please

Postby Wonks » Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:32 pm

I think it may be nearer line level at full blast. I just remembered I had the WMS40 receiver to go with an AKG guitar bug transmitter, and ran that into guitar pedals. Same receiver as the rest of that wireless range. So definitely more than mic level.
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Re: PA Live sound advice needed please

Postby Shortie4291 » Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:32 pm

Right, just had a look on G4M and I can afford the Mk1s not the Mk2s of the Yamaha DXR12, what do you guys think?

Specifications
Speaker Type: 12" 2-way, Bi-Amp Powered Speaker, Bass-Reflex Type
Frequency Range (-10dB): 52Hz - 20kHz
Nominal Coverage: H 90° V 60°
Components
LF: 12" Cone, 2.5" Voice Coil, Ferrite Magnet
HF: 1.4" Compression Driver, Ferrite Magnet
Crossover: FIR-X Tuning (Linear Phase FIR Filter)
Output Power: Dynamic: 1100W (LF: 950W HF: 150W) / Continuous: 700W (LF: 600W HF: 100W)
Maximum Output Level: 132dB SPL
Connectors:
Input 1: XLR-3-31 x1
Input 2: Phone x2
Input 3: RCA PIN x 2
Thru: XLR3-32 x 1 (Parallel With Input 1)
Link Out: XLR x 1
Processors: D-CONTOUR: FOH/MAIN, Monitor, Off
Power Requirements: 100V - 240V, 50Hz/60 Hz
Power Consumption: 110W
Flying And Mounting Hardware: Top x2, Rear x1 (Fits For M10 x 18mm Eyebolts)
Pole Socket: 35mm With 2-way Features (0° or 7°)
Dimensions
Height: 601 mm
Width: 362 mm
Depth: 350 mm
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