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Thinking ahead perfect PA

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Thinking ahead perfect PA

PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:02 pm
by gsc1ugs
Ok, ive brushed on this b4. I want a small very good system that delivers anything upto 500, i always need take all the gear but if its small 120 peeps i want put less in the room, if more i had to it, what would people recommend without breaking my back, i wont be hiring in, i need to do this myself. This is alot to do with lower end bass, i want the same sound in each room

Re: Thinking ahead perfect PA

PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:10 pm
by Music Wolf
gsc1ugs wrote: i want the same sound in each room

Then you need a PA + Engineer

Re: Thinking ahead perfect PA

PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:27 pm
by Sam Spoons
This ^

Somebody said in one of your earlier threads you can choose two out of three from good, cheap & light. That's still true, as are the laws of physics, small rooms and/or small boxes don't result in accurate bass.

Re: Thinking ahead perfect PA

PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:45 pm
by AlecSp
This ^^ and that ^

Re: Thinking ahead perfect PA

PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:09 pm
by shufflebeat
That ^^.

It's not as simple as you think.

Re: Thinking ahead perfect PA

PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:02 pm
by Dave B
gsc1ugs wrote:i want the same sound in each room

You and every other artist! This is the killer - with the right knowledge and experience it can be done with relatively modest kit. But even if you splurge on the most expensive rig imaginable, without someone with that knowledge running it, you’re never going to get that consistency...

Think of it this way : a more expensive PA will cost, say, 3 grand - 2 if you trade stuff in. Say you paid an engineer .. 100quid a gig .. that’s at least 20 great sounding gigs which will pretty much be guaranteed to get you more bookings. And help save your back loading in/out. And less stress and worry which should mean a better performance from you.

So ask yourself : isn’t it worth it to be able to provide a quality product? And not have to worry about (or explain away to a miffed venue / promoter ) bad sound / unexpected squeals and howls?

Re: Thinking ahead perfect PA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:54 am
by gsc1ugs
Trouble with hiring other people is the reliability issue, illness, sorry, didnt get that date. Etc. One person coming down with dreaded lurgy is issue enough.

I think a graphic would help so i can sort the room out, so the question still stands, is this add on pa more than likely an array system (frightened to mentioned ) l’acoustic system, ive seen the id24 system again a fortune but the smaller the better just keep adding pairs, i know i sound novice but i still cant get my head round the perfect system for all, indoor outdoor. I being my last big investment quiting other jobs to put my effects into it i want the right gear. Thanks for listening.

Re: Thinking ahead perfect PA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:39 am
by shufflebeat
The premise of your question is flawed. The perfect PA system, like an F1 racing car includes someone who can get the most out of it.

Bearing in mind that the sound experienced by those listening to it will be determined to a significant extent by the space itself and the physical properties of the audience there is an inherent problem in recommending any kind of "set and forget" system.

I would suggest a good operator with a mediocre but sufficient system will provide a much better experience for the listeners than a bus driver in a racing car.

Good people usually value their reputation and will do at least as much as you to be reliable. They may even improve your project in ways you haven't considered.

Re: Thinking ahead perfect PA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:43 am
by gsc1ugs
Great words.... BUT.... at this stage im looking at something i can manage and and good rig with easy enough add ons and a graphic will suffice for now. Thanks for all your input.

Re: Thinking ahead perfect PA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:00 am
by MarkPAman
shufflebeat wrote: They may even improve your project in ways you haven't considered.

As your setup is vocal & backing tracks, there's probably not too much to do with the sound once it's set right for circumstances of that night, so you could find somebody who can, look after the lighting too.

Re: Thinking ahead perfect PA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:36 am
by Arpangel
There has been a lot of good replies here, great advice, but sometimes compromises and have to be made to get to where you want to be.
I got roped in to manage the PA for a friends band, and I'm not, a PA engineer.
The idea of a graphic EQ to match sound to venue isn't such a bad one under the circumstances, I did the same thing, it's not maybe the "right way" to do it, but it works sometimes. I used to use radical EQ settings on our mixer to get out of trouble, settings that looked obscene, but it worked and no one complained, or thought anything was wrong.
Also, hiring a "proper" PA engineer isn't simple, good ones aren't easy to find, you could easily end up with someone who would do a worse job than you, how often have I heard that before?

Re: Thinking ahead perfect PA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:22 am
by Tim Gillett
Music Wolf wrote:
gsc1ugs wrote: i want the same sound in each room

Then you need a PA + Engineer

And even with the best PA and the best engineer, even that wont be enough. The venue has the final word.

Re: Thinking ahead perfect PA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:23 am
by Sam Spoons
gsc1ugs wrote:I think a graphic would help so i can sort the room out,

But you'd have to know how to use it

so the question still stands, is this add on pa more than likely an array system (frightened to mentioned ) l’acoustic system, ive seen the id24 system again a fortune but the smaller the better just keep adding pairs,

Two boxes a line array does not make, and you'd need at least one sub even in the smallest rooms (and you'd need 4 id24's a side to match a pair of Yamaha DZR10s).

i know i sound novice but i still cant get my head round the perfect system for all, indoor outdoor. I being my last big investment quiting other jobs to put my effects into it i want the right gear. Thanks for listening.

One system will not do all jobs, if it's man enough for 500 people outdoors it will be too big for an indoor function to 60 punters and vice versa.

Do you have a promo vid you can link to, I seem to remember seeing one a while ago but can't find it. IIRC your show is very polished.

Re: Thinking ahead perfect PA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:42 am
by gsc1ugs
:bouncy: :D
Its just a promo for agent.
https://youtu.be/3KiT3lxs2yM

Re: Thinking ahead perfect PA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:27 am
by MarkPAman
Nice.

But if you don't cup the mic, that will help the sound.

Just checked a live Madness video - Suggs holds it quite high up, but does not appear to cover the grill at all.

Re: Thinking ahead perfect PA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:31 am
by gsc1ugs
Got use to doing that when i had no bins... sometimes do it for low speaking lyrics, live is different from that promo. Thxs :thumbup:

Re: Thinking ahead perfect PA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:01 pm
by Sam Spoons
Yes that's the one I remember, nice :clap:

Cupping the mic affects the frequency response and directionality (if you block the vents at the back of the capsule you change the pattern into omni with all the feedback issues that can produce).

Re: Thinking ahead perfect PA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:47 pm
by shufflebeat
gsc1ugs wrote:Great words.... BUT.... at this stage im looking at something i can manage and and good rig with easy enough add ons and a graphic will suffice for now. Thanks for all your input.

I feel you may have inadvertently pre-derailed the conversation with the word "perfect". If you were to substitute "appropriate" we might have been more focussed on your needs rather than dealing with the fact that a "perfect" option doesn't exist without an actual human making real time choices.

Do you already have a mixer?
Are the rooms adjacent?
EQ will not solve phase issues, it may mask them temporarily until your audience arrive.

Once you have the main FOH sorted a pair of Yamaha DXRs on a delayed aux if appropriate would raise few complaints from normal punters (SOS folks might tut a little).

Re: Thinking ahead perfect PA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:31 pm
by Sam Spoons
OK, back to the original question.

You'll struggle to find a scalable system that will cover all the bases, the nearest I can think of with a decent budget would be 4 x DZR10s and a couple of DXS15 subs. 2 x tops for small gigs and add a sub or two and the extra tops as delay satellites* as they get bigger. You'll need a digital mixer (any will do the job but I have 2 x X32s, an XR12 and a Mackie DL1608, the Mackie is the easiest to use)

* place them part way down the room and delay them by 1ms per foot. They won't work as well placed side by side in a conventional room but if you run one pair about 3dB lower than the other it helps keep comb filtering effects down. In an odd shaped room firing the tops into different areas will work ok.

Re: Thinking ahead perfect PA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:00 pm
by gsc1ugs
Your right, im doomed, just setting up now
In a room hard floored, how the hell can i sound check with noone in