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Where from here?

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Re: Where from here?

Postby Mike Stranks » Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:12 am

These will be my last comments in this thread...

We all know science-fiction very often becomes fact... at some point. The trick for entrepreneurs is knowing when to jump and if immediate benefits will fund the cost.

The VR enthusiasts and visionaries here are obviously excited about potentialities; fair enough.

But no-one has come close to answering my questions about the applicability of the concept being presented here to the mass live-sound market.

In summary; it's not a realistic 'live-sound', audience-present product...

Get excited about the potential by all means; just be clear that this is about an innovative way of broadcasting an event to an absent audience. It's not, from what's been stated and enthused about, a product for anything but very specialised audience-present events.
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Re: Where from here?

Postby where_theres_a_will_theres_a_way » Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:24 am

CS70 wrote:As for the "would want" - glad to bet my house then a century or two from now it'll be a very common type of entertainment.. it has all the necessary traits.
Careful with your house.. it's a possibility that we'll have a brain interface by then :think:
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Re: Where from here?

Postby BJG145 » Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:25 am

The Elf wrote:Of course that will change, but it has a LONG way to go to be genuinely 'useful' as opposed to 'entertaining', IMHO.

AR is already being used to build spacecraft and save lives...

https://www.eetimes.com/lockheed-martin ... op-floor/#

https://news.microsoft.com/en-gb/2018/0 ... e-on-them/
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Re: Where from here?

Postby CS70 » Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:57 am

where_theres_a_will_theres_a_way wrote:
CS70 wrote:As for the "would want" - glad to bet my house then a century or two from now it'll be a very common type of entertainment.. it has all the necessary traits.
Careful with your house.. it's a possibility that we'll have a brain interface by then :think:

Laughing... in a century or two, unfortunately, I will not care less about my house :D
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Re: Where from here?

Postby CS70 » Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:14 pm

Mike Stranks wrote:In summary; it's not a realistic 'live-sound', audience-present product...

If you define "live" as the same room... well, it's your own definition and fair enough. :)
It is just not what most people refers to, when they think of live VR events. As with most "new" stuff, it may be hard to fully grasp in terms of existing tech, and requires dropping some instinctive pre-judgement and experience.

When you talk of people being in the same room but seeing something that it's not really there, thru some device, you are talking of augmented reality (AR). AR is already very much used in a swath of successful and profitable products.

The main limit imho with music is that, in order to have an experience which people would pay for, you need to have enough content (in addition to the audio). And right now the devices which could add such content are just too uncool - the total opposite of the experience one wants when going to a gig. It's all good to go around with a wireless visor in your house, but few people would want to be seen wearing one in public :D

The experience of Google glasses (too dorky) and 3D cinema (doesn't really add enough to the experience to be worth having) are cases in point.

Completely agree that the right timing counts for a lot - but that's the same with any tech. Had someone invented phantom power when electrical grids were rare and unstable and non standardized, it would have not been a success at all.

That it's the right moment or not, I don't know (or better, I do think not yet, because of the "dorkiness" above..) but it may take not so much: these disruptions are bloody hard to predict in one sense or the other.

I recall the time, around 15-20 years ago, when I saw a guy walking on the road, apparently talking loudly to himself while moving his umbrella around (it had just stopped raining). For a second I believed he was a person with mental issues, and thought nothing of it... but then I realized he was having a phone conversation! That was the first wireless earpiece I ever saw! Nokia had just come out with them and while I'd heard of them (I was working with telecom software then) I hadn't yet seen one. Now earbuds (wireless or not) are all over the place and nobody think they are particularly strange.

You never know..
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Re: Where from here?

Postby where_theres_a_will_theres_a_way » Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:16 pm

CS70 wrote:
where_theres_a_will_theres_a_way wrote:
CS70 wrote:As for the "would want" - glad to bet my house then a century or two from now it'll be a very common type of entertainment.. it has all the necessary traits.
Careful with your house.. it's a possibility that we'll have a brain interface by then :think:

Laughing... in a century or two, unfortunately, I will not care less about my house :D
Depends how old you are now I suppose but https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRt7LjqJ45k
Keep it, to be on the safe-side
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Re: Where from here?

Postby The Elf » Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:35 pm

BJG145 wrote:
The Elf wrote:Of course that will change, but it has a LONG way to go to be genuinely 'useful' as opposed to 'entertaining', IMHO.

AR is already being used to build spacecraft and save lives...

https://www.eetimes.com/lockheed-martin ... op-floor/#

https://news.microsoft.com/en-gb/2018/0 ... e-on-them/
Every new technology comes with these wondrous 'examples'. I am dubious that they represent the reality...
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Re: Where from here?

Postby Happyandbored » Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:47 pm

Mike Stranks wrote:These will be my last comments in this thread...

We all know science-fiction very often becomes fact... at some point. The trick for entrepreneurs is knowing when to jump and if immediate benefits will fund the cost.

The VR enthusiasts and visionaries here are obviously excited about potentialities; fair enough.

But no-one has come close to answering my questions about the applicability of the concept being presented here to the mass live-sound market.

In summary; it's not a realistic 'live-sound', audience-present product...

Get excited about the potential by all means; just be clear that this is about an innovative way of broadcasting an event to an absent audience. It's not, from what's been stated and enthused about, a product for anything but very specialised audience-present events.

VR will be a niche interest for the foreseeable, that's pretty undeniable. IMHO, we've only had a minimum viable mass-market VR set on the market for just over a year with the Oculus Quest. Prior to that, most VR outside expensive PC tethered devices, wasn't really VR with no hand or positional head tracking, lousy FOV and resolution.

However, live events can be streamed over YouTube and YouTube offers 3D 360 playback... Meanwhile, Oculus Venues, Bigscreen and several other apps offer avatar based chat environments with group viewing facilities, while MelodyVR offer VR concerts recorded from multiple views, but unfortunately no group facility to create an embodied multi-user experience.

The trick I feel is bringing all this tech together onto a single, multi-format platform, so both those with and without VR can experience both the content and potentially the social aspect of it. Judging VR today is a bit like judging quad sound back in the 70s and even today, 50 years later, most households don't have a full 5.1 surround sound setup in their living rooms, let alone Dolby Atmos. But that doesn't matter, because for most regular stereo playback is fine and there is enough of an audience to justify the extra options.

VR is unlikely to ever match going to a live gig or have a strong enough market to be a sustainable platform alone, but there's no reason it can't continue to be a successful niche interest for enthusiasts.

Today, you can already pick up a 3D 360 camera for about £500, alongside a regular 2D camera. Most of us could probably figure out how to live stream it over YouTube and mix a live stream of a band. People could watch it on their smart TVs or computers, while the weirdos with VR sets can down some memezine and watch in VR. This is all possible now, it's just the embodied, social aspect which is annoyingly missing from YouTube, in spite of other VR apps supporting it.
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Re: Where from here?

Postby BJG145 » Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:11 pm

The Elf wrote:Every new technology comes with these wondrous 'examples'. I am dubious that they represent the reality.

Well, really. That's like claiming that electric toasters are some futile sci-fi fantasy.

"But the cafe down the road has got one; they're doing crumpets with it," I argue.

"Hah," sniffs The Elf. "Every new technology has these 'wondrous examples' I suppose."

Tell you what, I'll bump this discussion in another five years and then you can admit how wrong you were. I'm patient. :D
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Re: Where from here?

Postby Sam Spoons » Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:27 pm

Wait ten and we'll all be existing in the Matrix :bouncy:
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Re: Where from here?

Postby Happyandbored » Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:38 pm

BJG145 wrote:
The Elf wrote:Every new technology comes with these wondrous 'examples'. I am dubious that they represent the reality.
Tell you what, I'll bump this discussion in another five years and then you can admit how wrong you were. I'm patient. :D

Think five years is optimistic and VR is always going to be hobbled by the having to wear glasses aspect, so it's likely a large number of people will always reject it, but 15-20 years time will be interesting as soon as we're all done with LARPing 12 Monkeys.

Re: the headset issue, I've thought for a while an alternative approach is needed. Large flat screens and positional tracking for perspective via Kinect-style gadgetry is one largely untried way of bringing VR/AR environments into homes, but that relies on there only being one viewer at any one time, unless the system can track multiple people and display multiple views interleaved via a lenticular display. Stereoscopy isn't that important in creating a convincing 3D environment, it's the updating perspective according to user position which is important. (On this subject, I really don't get why Xbox/Kinect didn't offer something like this as option for solitary gamers: imagine how much more immersive an FPS on a standard TV would be if it updated the perspective according to the player's head position?) This is also why 360 video, even in 3D, often feels lacking. You lose any sense of presence the moment you move your head slightly and things seem to warp slightly as perspective doesn't change.

VR needs to be accessible in multiple ways and those methods need to be accessing the same shared content and virtual space, not siloed away with say YouTube on one device and MelodyVR on another device.
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Re: Where from here?

Postby The Elf » Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:43 pm

BJG145 wrote:
The Elf wrote:Every new technology comes with these wondrous 'examples'. I am dubious that they represent the reality.

Well, really. That's like claiming that electric toasters are some futile sci-fi fantasy...

Tell you what, I'll bump this discussion in another five years and then you can admit how wrong you were. I'm patient. :D
:lol: I'm happy to be proved wrong, but I've been promised flying cars since I was an 8 year old watching 'Tomorrow's World'. There was *always* a film of the prototype, but it never made it to my street...
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Re: Where from here?

Postby Sam Spoons » Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:47 pm

In my case it was since watching The Sweeny, disappointing that they didn't fly for long though..... :D
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Re: Where from here?

Postby BJG145 » Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:18 pm

Happyandbored wrote:VR is always going to be hobbled by the having to wear glasses aspect.

In 2025 Elf will be wearing these.

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Re: Where from here?

Postby BJG145 » Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:20 pm

Sam Spoons wrote:In my case it was since watching The Sweeney, disappointing that they didn't fly for long though.

Dukes of Hazzard here.

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