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Near throw bass options?

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Near throw bass options?

Postby mikehende » Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:07 pm

So guys, since I have my highs situation settled next is to address the bass situation.

I have a dual 18" Sonic Bass reflex and a Cerwin Vega L36 in my Garage which I have to drive at high power to really hear it as loud as I would like.

What I need is to hear the bass at "lower volume". I have 10" powered sub which gives the bass right there at low volume but problem is in this small 20'Lx10'Wx8'H garage seems like anywhere you should be sending or sitting the bass is different.

Is there any type of bass speaker whether powered or non-powered which will sound the same and at almost same volume no matter where you will be sitting or standing in that room please and especially at lower volume?
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Re: Near throw bass options?

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:57 pm

mikehende wrote:Is there any type of bass speaker ... which will sound the same and at almost same volume no matter where you will be sitting or standing in that room...?

This isn't so much about the speaker as the room itself.

Bass within a room is always tricky, and bass within a small room like your garage is always even trickier. Read up on Standing Waves...

http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/room-modes-101/

The long wavelengths of low frequency sound mean that the direct and reflected (from the room boundaries) sound waves create static areas in the room where they enhance one another (so get louder) and areas where they interfere destructively with each other (so get much quieter).

The only real way to deal with this is to remove the reflected sound and that typically means installing bass traps ... but that's not always practical or cost effective, especially in smaller rooms.

The location of the subwoofer makes a huge difference, but can't remove the problem altogether. And using multiple subs can help in some situations too, again, with carefully worked out locations.
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Re: Near throw bass options?

Postby mikehende » Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:48 pm

Hmnn, thanks but that's very discouraging. I had toyed with the idea of placing 4 powered subs one in each corner of the room to create a surround bass type system, might something along those lines work?
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Re: Near throw bass options?

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:04 pm

There are various room mode calculators on the web which will give you an idea of the distribution of peaks and nulls through the space at different bass frequencies.

The strength of peaks and nulls depends on the mass of the room walls and how 'leaky' and doors/windows/ceiling might be...

Placing subs in the corners will increase their efficiency significantly, and the converging pressure wave fronts at the middle of the room might be impressive or uncomfortable, depending on your point of view.
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Re: Near throw bass options?

Postby mikehende » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:02 pm

I have a dual 18" sub plus a Cerwin Vega L36 and to hear the bass I have to crank it up to almost full power but a friend of mine has only one JBL 18" Powered bass and even on low volume you can hear the bass.

Can anyone explain to me please why powered bass give such high output at low volume compared to non-powered?
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Re: Near throw bass options?

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:07 pm

It's the room!
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Re: Near throw bass options?

Postby mikehende » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:20 pm

I will try to bring my friend's JBL here to compare side by side and will get back to you but my DJ friends all say the same thing, that powered speakers does give much higher output at lower volume than passive.
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Re: Near throw bass options?

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:24 pm

That's patently nonsense!

An active subwoofer is a woofer powered by an amp in the same box.

A passive subwoofer is a woofer powered by an amp in a different box!

What matters is the size of the woofer, the size of the cabinet, and the power of the amp...

... and, of course, the room acoustics, where the sub is placed in the room, and where the listener is placed.
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Re: Near throw bass options?

Postby mikehende » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:34 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:An active subwoofer is a woofer powered by an amp in the same box.

A passive subwoofer is a woofer powered by an amp in a different box!


That's my thinking. I will do a comparison then report back soon as I can get my friend over here, maybe this weekend.

Meantime, I am seeking a more "punch" bass and thinking of replacing my speakers with a powered. I have a 10" powered sub which gives this punch but would need a 15 or 18" and looking at either of these JBL options:

https://www.proaudiostar.com/jbl-prx815 ... l#features

or this:

https://www.audiosavings.com/jbl-prx818 ... qkEALw_wcB

What exactly determines the punchiness of a bass please? I am thinking maybe a 15" would give more punch than an 18" as all 15's I have ever heard seems to give more punch or maybe it's a mind over matter deal?
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Re: Near throw bass options?

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:39 pm

mikehende wrote:I will do a comparison then report back soon as I can get my friend over here, maybe this weekend.

A comparison is only valid if the units have the same speaker and the same cabinet dimensions and design, and the same amp power.

I suspect what your friends really mean is that modern active subs tend to be much more efficient and generally better-designed than older passive designs.

But beware small, powerful subs that generate a lot of 'thump' but only produce one 'note' regardless of the signal frequency being put in!
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Re: Near throw bass options?

Postby mikehende » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:52 pm

Right, that makes sense, it's logical that "specs-wise" it would be comparing apples to oranges but I am referring to what we are hearing.

See, for us with the powered we are hearing the same loudness of bass at a lower volume than the passive at a much higher volume, I cannot explain that in any other way. If it was only myself I would say well yes, mind over matter but for other DJ's to tell me the same thing........

So regarding the punch issue, any word on when deciding on which speaker type to buy for punch bass?
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Re: Near throw bass options?

Postby MarkPAman » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:59 pm

Unless the manufacturer is crap, a powered speaker will have a very well matched amp in it. The can even take cable length & type into account. Some also have clever control circuits that monitor the way the speaker is moving help maximise efficiency.

Separate speakers and amps may not match so well. And except in some cases where the amp is designed for that speaker the "clever stuff" will not be there.

How well do your amps match each of your speakers?
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Re: Near throw bass options?

Postby mikehende » Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:11 pm

This is a great point. It was my thinking when I had looked at the specs of these JBL's.

Seems the DSP feature with everything you've written is there to maximize efficiency.

I don't know about my amps and speakers. I am using a crown 3600 amp running a dual 18" Sonic with Eminence kilomax Pro woofers. I was told by a friend that the Crown Amp does not have adequate power to do those speakers justice so I would say that they do not matchup properly.

Getting back to the issue at hand, I need to get a punch type bass so trying to figure out which type powered speaker or specs I should be looking for?
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Re: Near throw bass options?

Postby mikehende » Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:06 pm

I spoke with a speaker builder few minutes ago. He said before I should do anything my existing speakers, he recommend I try the Aphex Big Bottom unit as that is designed to punch the bass without increasing the audio level:

http://www.aphex.com/products/exciter

I am going to look into trying the software version plugin.
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Re: Near throw bass options?

Postby The Red Bladder » Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:43 pm

mikehende wrote: he recommend I try the Aphex Big Bottom unit as that is designed to punch the bass without increasing the audio level:

In that case, your speaker builder is (I am sorry to say and assuming he is in possession of all the facts) an idiot.

I have the Aphex Big Bottom - the real one, not just the software and it does a COMPLETELY different task. It adds harmonic distortion to the bass.

Hugh told you the answer right at the beginning - it's the bloody room. A garage is the WORST place to listen to anything! IT'S TOO SMALL!

We have a listening room that doubles as a movie theater. It's where I do mastering in stereo, 5.1 and 7.1 and where we watch completed films (and lately in C19 lockdown watch movies of course!) and it is acoustically treated. Bass traps adorn every corner. I spent an entire day measuring the room - and I happen to know what I am doing! It is many times larger than a bloody garage!

Without proper acoustic treatment, the second and third rows would get NO BASS AT ALL. With treatment, you hardly notice any difference.

When I am not playing at being a studio owner, I am a business consultant and this is a classic case of what I call 'Looking for magic zoom pills.'

Hugh gave you the answer - but it is not the answer you WANTED to hear!

Now stop waiting for that magic Zoom-Pill and listen to people that know what they are talking about - in this case, Hugh! It's the damn room (or rather that horrible garage).

Tell the wife that from now on, the living room is your new music studio and she can watch Eastenders on the lavatory!
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