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Recording live sound

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Re: Recording live sound

Postby shufflebeat » Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:11 pm

CS70 wrote:..have everything go thru the PA, so your FOH mix and your raw stereo recording are the same, and similar to what the audience hears (well, except maybe the first couple rows).

Fine for larger systems/rooms but not good for small systems (or very lively rooms) where lots of energy in the room is coming directly from kit/amps and will skew either the room sound or the recording, depending on which you prioritise.
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Re: Recording live sound

Postby CS70 » Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:14 pm

shufflebeat wrote:
CS70 wrote:..have everything go thru the PA, so your FOH mix and your raw stereo recording are the same, and similar to what the audience hears (well, except maybe the first couple rows).

Ok for larger systems/rooms but not good for small systems where lots of energy in the room is coming directly from kit/amps and will skew either the room sound or the recording, depending on which you prioritise.

That's what I was trying to say - I actually mic _also_ in small places and keep room level low.
Though we often use(d) an electronic drum kit these days so the biggest problem is solved.
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Re: Recording live sound

Postby Tomás Mulcahy » Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:47 pm

Comment of the day: "put George Martin back in the box" brilliant :)
MarkPAman wrote:
James Perrett wrote:I think last couple of times we did something like this, we recorded the main L&R out of the desk, and had a video camera pointed at the student/desk that had a separate stereo mic capturing room sound. These were then trimmed to get the start points to match and submitted together, with students comments on the results.

Number one comment of course is that vocals are too loud from the desk recording, but about right on the camera - and the reason for this. Then a mention of what & why each change they can be seen making in the video was done.
This seems like the most sensible way to cover the learning outcomes and ensure the students do actually learn something via one cycle of reflective practice. You could argue it is two cycles, because they intuitively do the live mix, then listen back to two recordings of it and start to understand why there is a difference.
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Re: Recording live sound

Postby Sam Spoons » Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:50 pm

Humf wrote:
Sam Spoons wrote:Great minds.... :D I've just typed :-

Have you got enough inputs to record all of these things*? And can you make up some special leads with a split from the insert send to the AI and the normal send and return to use the outboard?

* X drum mics, 2 or 3 vox, bass, guitar and keys (stereo?), a 16 input interface would allow you to get everything into the DAW.
I’m not quite following your idea with making up some splitters. Can you go more slowly for me? Although might not be relevant as we have 8in/out only...


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Sorry for the delay in replying...

I was thinking of a standard TRS to 2 x TS insert lead with an additional TS duplicating the send to the AI and the fx unit but a TS female to 2 x TS male would achieve the same effect.

WRT ending up with a stereo mix I'm with the "the desk mix will not be a good repersantation of the audience sound" camp. Unless you are running a very large PA in a very large venue the drums and backline will contribute a large proportion of the audience sound so you need a recording made in the room to represent the actual live mix.

WRT 8 inputs, if you have the chance to record and use a multitrack and mix later I'd go for (and have used with good results) the following input list :-

1, Kick
2, Overhead
3, Bass DI
4, Guitar amp (close miked)
5 Keys (mono)
6/7/8, Vocals

If you only need 2 vox then use the spare channel for either a Snare mic or maybe a second overhead.
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Re: Recording live sound

Postby shufflebeat » Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:32 pm

CS70 wrote:That's what I was trying to say - I actually mic _also_ in small places and keep room level low.
Though we often use(d) an electronic drum kit these days so the biggest problem is solved.

Just thought I'd say it out loud.

Electric drumkits are a beautiful thing, that's why all the drummers I know hate them - until it 's time to carry the gear.

One of the local bars got a 'leccy kit to deal with local noise complaints. The drummers beat it into electronic afterlife in about 6 months.

I quite liked it, but I'm a singing guitarist (or vice versa).


Sam Spoons wrote:If you only need 2 vox then use the spare channel for either a Snare mic or maybe a second overhead.

Actually, for recording purposes I've found a single omni between the toms or over the shoulder solves a whole lot of problems and avoids some others.
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Re: Recording live sound

Postby CS70 » Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:59 pm

shufflebeat wrote:
CS70 wrote:That's what I was trying to say - I actually mic _also_ in small places and keep room level low.
Though we often use(d) an electronic drum kit these days so the biggest problem is solved.

Just thought I'd say it out loud.

Electric drumkits are a beautiful thing, that's why all the drummers I know hate them - until it 's time to carry the gear.

One of the local bars got a 'leccy kit to deal with local noise complaints. The drummers beat it into electronic afterlife in about 6 months.

I quite liked it, but I'm a singing guitarist (or vice versa).

Surprisingly, it’s all been the drummer’s idea. I guess the subwoofer bigger than the average bathroom had it’s appeal
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Re: Recording live sound

Postby shufflebeat » Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:13 pm

CS70 wrote:the subwoofer bigger than the average bathroom had it’s appeal

Ooh, that'll do it.
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Re: Recording live sound

Postby Sam Spoons » Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:31 pm

A mate used to carry around a V-Drum module and a huge PA stack with a monster sub (must have been about 3 or 4 kW) and a full sized drum kit fitted with triggers and mesh heads :headbang:
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Re: Recording live sound

Postby CS70 » Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:33 am

Ahah, yeah, the consequence of the gigantic subwoofer for us is that he now needs help to put the thing in the van every time we go to a place without backline and drum kit.

Thanks god there's the bass player. :lol:
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Re: Recording live sound

Postby Humf » Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:40 am

Thanks for everyone’s input on this thread. I’m just waiting for an answer from the exam board re. learning objectives etc.


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Re: Recording live sound

Postby AlecSp » Thu Dec 10, 2020 2:01 pm

Humf wrote:Thanks for everyone’s input on this thread. I’m just waiting for an answer from the exam board re. learning objectives etc.
Abolutely - without knowing this you may steer into the wrong direction.

I have a sneaking suspicion they want a warts and all recording of the LR bus straight from the desk. This is easy for you to do, even if it doesn't make for the most pleasant of listening.

But, if they want a polished "live album" recording you will be following a completely different direction - ideally recording multitrack to DAW and then post-mixing from there.

What's also not clear is how much of a "gig" the recorded event will be. Will it be an event with punters, or will it be the band playing in an empty room? If the latter, then you could get a reasonable result by mixing, with judicious use of headphones, and applying suitable reverb in places, and some subtle panning of sources - you can get a surprisingly good result this way. If the former, then you may be a little compromised, as I presume you'd be using your 2 aux sends for monitors, and so wouldn't have the opportunity to have a dedicated recording output.
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Re: Recording live sound

Postby Humf » Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:09 pm

Thanks. I suspect you’re right and the reply will be to send a straight out raw feed from the desk. If so, then I’m at a loss as to what that would tell them. We’re in an empty hall with highly reflective surfaces with student performers, so having already done a trial run, I can confirm that the PA was doing more of a ‘corrective’ job eg. help the lead singer balance better, balance the keys, a bit of drum definition etc...

Having typed that , I guess one answer is that the students have to just write all that up. However, if the opportunity arises then I’ll be suggesting they submit some audio of the ‘total’ result showing how it worked out as a whole. Could just be done from a stereo pair front of stage. Or the desk does have sub outs and monitor outs so I quite like wonks idea of running ambient mics into the mix running to Logic.


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Re: Recording live sound

Postby shufflebeat » Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:05 pm

Humf wrote:I guess one answer is that the students have to just write all that up.

If the powers that be are familiar with live recording then this is the answer they're looking for, if not then they need to have it spelled out in these terms so they don't hear the desk recording as evidence of a job not very well done.
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Re: Recording live sound

Postby Humf » Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:14 pm

Absolutely.

One of the issues here.... I’ve been running this course for over ten years. I spent a good chunk of the earlier period really getting to know a stable spec and finding ways to apply it in a way suited to our specific context ... eg. resources, time allocation, types of kids etc

But the recent changes just keep on coming, year on year now since probably about 2016/7 (rough guess) things just don’t stop being altered. This is no way to get to best out of teachers or kids.


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Re: Recording live sound

Postby Humf » Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:15 pm

I’m not necessarily blaming the exam board for that btw.


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