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Help me understand about "frequency response" aspects please?

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Re: Help me understand about "frequency response" aspects please?

Postby blinddrew » Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:16 am

The other thing to bear in mind is that a loudspeaker unit is a combination of components, and it's the combination that matters, not the individual units. Individual drivers, the cross-over, the cabinet construction and any damping, all of these have an effect on the final sound. Just replacing one component with a different one is not an effective test of that component.
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Re: Help me understand about "frequency response" aspects please?

Postby mikehende » Wed Dec 23, 2020 2:50 pm

James Perrett wrote:The Peavey horn possibly isn't well matched to the driver. A large horn like that is really better at midrange and the specs show a peak in the frequency response at 2kHz with a gradually falling response that is -5dB from the peak at 10kHz and then dropping rapidly after that. So you need to treat that as a midrange horn and add a proper high frequency horn to the system.

I used quite a bit of Peavey gear in my younger days and the HDH series were the only Peavey speakers with a vaguely decent high frequency response. The MFX sounded horrible to my ears.

You've hit the nail on the head James.

I think it finally hit me last night guys, going through all of the info I have received on horns so far. I had a pair of Peavey SP2's years ago and had gotten rid of them because while I loved how the vocals sounded coming from the horns, it just did not give enough highs. So I got rid of them and upgraded to a pair of EV Eliminator I series which had better quality but it's square shaped horn does not give the type of highs I am searching for either.

I think what I have been searching for is a horn from which I can get some vocals but also which has the highs of a super tweeter, that is what I have been searching for all this time and is why I am pinpointing the JBL 2342 horn in particular. I am hoping since it seems to be a bigger version of the JBL 2404 I might get the highs of the 2404 from that horn.

So my question to sum up this topic and issue is, is there a horn and/or driver available which fits this description please? Or if that is not available then my only option would be to get a separate super tweeter to add to a horn? This was my main reason why I started looking into understanding Specs, I was thinking that maybe a horn Driver's specs might tell me if it will give highs like a super tweeter.

If there should be a driver available for the Peavey's which will give me the highs then this would be first option.

I don't think I am alone with this as here in my neck of the woods in NY many DJ's build custom cabs with both larger horns and bullet tweeters.
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Re: Help me understand about "frequency response" aspects please?

Postby Sam Spoons » Wed Dec 23, 2020 4:09 pm

I can't help thinking you'd be better off buying a decent pair of active speakers, say Yamaha DZR 315s, way louder than anything else in the price range and 31Hz-20kHz (-10dB points) frequency range.

BTW (and just a thought), I'm not surprised you son preferred the sound of the Peavey with the additional tweeter if the standard horns lack proper high end (as suggested). Any additional tweeter would have helped. But IMHO super tweeters are just snake oil, we adults cannot hear above 15 or 16 kHz once we have reached our 30's and even you son probably can't hear much above that so it definitely ain't 22kHz that was exciting him.
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Re: Help me understand about "frequency response" aspects please?

Postby Trevor Johnson » Wed Dec 23, 2020 4:10 pm

Some people believe it worthwhile to reproduce 'ultrasonic' frequencies which are technically those above 20kHz

I recall some people saying that, for example if you have a frequency cut-off, then you are limiting the mixing products of various audio frequencies. I have wondered about this, sometimes, when thining about the mixing products from pipe organs' 'mixture stops' which may be quint, cornet, tierce, harmonic mixtures, etc..

Tim de Paravicini, had in the past, if I remember, commented on this.

Very sadly, Tim de Paravicini, passed away on the 17th of this month,
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Re: Help me understand about "frequency response" aspects please?

Postby mikehende » Wed Dec 23, 2020 4:21 pm

Sam Spoons wrote:I can't help thinking you'd be better off buying a decent pair of active speakers, say Yamaha DZR 315s, way louder than anything else in the price range and 31Hz-20kHz (-10dB points) frequency range.

Oh there you are Sam :). I have had my eyes on EAW JF260 Speakers:

https://all-guidesbox.com/manual/174090 ... ons-2.html

which come very highly recommended but I don't want to make the same mistake again as I had done by upgrading from the SP2 to the EV Eliminators. So I am trying first to see if I might be able to work with the Peavey horns by changing to the actual original drivers which came with it:

https://peavey.com/manuals/80300843.pdf

I am seeing the drivers used for around $40 so I am contemplating buying just one to compare with the D220Ti side by side as first option. 2nd option would be to try the JBL 2342 if it's driver can give me the highs of the 2404 super tweeter I am thinking before trying any other speaker?
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Re: Help me understand about "frequency response" aspects please?

Postby James Perrett » Wed Dec 23, 2020 4:43 pm

mikehende wrote:I am hoping since it seems to be a bigger version of the JBL 2404 I might get the highs of the 2404 from that horn.

It is a mistake to think that bigger is better. When it comes to high frequencies you need to match the horn characteristics to the driver and a smaller horn may be better for what you want.

However, don't get stuck in the 1970's. Modern PA speakers are far better at producing clean high frequencies than anything from the 1970's (and the Peavey stuff you mention is definitely 1970's technology - even if it was made later).
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Re: Help me understand about "frequency response" aspects please?

Postby mikehende » Wed Dec 23, 2020 4:51 pm

James Perrett wrote:It is a mistake to think that bigger is better. When it comes to high frequencies you need to match the horn characteristics to the driver and a smaller horn may be better for what you want.

However, don't get stuck in the 1970's. Modern PA speakers are far better at producing clean high frequencies than anything from the 1970's (and the Peavey stuff you mention is definitely 1970's technology - even if it was made later).

Yup, again you've nailed it! that was always my thinking. I have a friend who has one of the EAW MK series like this. one which I will try to go to him so I can listen and experiment with it:

https://www.ccisolutions.com/StoreFront ... pa-speaker
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Re: Help me understand about "frequency response" aspects please?

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:34 pm

Trevor Johnson wrote:.... thining about the mixing products from pipe organs' 'mixture stops' which may be quint, cornet, tierce, harmonic mixtures, etc..

Yes, in theory inaudible harmonics at 25 and 27kHz could beat acoustically to produce an audible tone at 2kHz... but there is usually so little energy in such high harmonics, and so much atmospheric loss at those frequencies, that I doubt it would result in anything above the noise floor at typical listening distances.

Very sadly, Tim de Paravicini, passed away on the 17th of this month,

Oh dear. I didn't know that. Very sad.
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Re: Help me understand about "frequency response" aspects please?

Postby Sam Spoons » Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:37 pm

Refresh my memory Mike, is this for your garage or for gigs? Those EAW's are probably very good but don't actually go very loud, and the price is eye-watering for a passive speaker for 'home' use. I'm assuming you are hoping to buy used?

If you have the kind of budget a new pair of EAW MA2326 cost plus amps (2 x stereo) and controller then I'd still advise you to go for a pair of good, modern, active/powered speakers. If it's for gigs the Yamaha's I suggested would be my choice, for a garage then Yamaha DXS12s or DXS 10s plus a sub or two would be more cost effective as you don't need the 143 dB SPL the DZR 315s can supply (and at 134dB SPL they are a lot louder than the EAWs).
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Re: Help me understand about "frequency response" aspects please?

Postby mikehende » Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:46 pm

It's only for my small garage use Sam. Yes, fried of mine has 3 of them so won't be too costly for me to get the MK series, forgot which exact model he has stored away.
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Re: Help me understand about "frequency response" aspects please?

Postby Sam Spoons » Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:28 pm

I can't imagine the EAWs won't be a huge step up from the Peaveys or EVs... Definitely worth a try, in your garage anything that can deliver 128dB SPL should be adequate if the sound how you want them.
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Re: Help me understand about "frequency response" aspects please?

Postby mikehende » Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:54 pm

What I just cannot seem to get is what is it which makes a super tweeter give much more highs than a regular horn driver and why isn't there a super tweeter driver you can use on a horn?
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Re: Help me understand about "frequency response" aspects please?

Postby blinddrew » Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:57 pm

I think you just need to do some reading up on the physics of horn drivers. That will explain the properties and the limitations.
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Re: Help me understand about "frequency response" aspects please?

Postby mikehende » Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:02 am

Ok will check on it.
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Re: Help me understand about "frequency response" aspects please?

Postby Sam Spoons » Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:58 am

Wot ee sez...

But my take is that the Peavey Horn probably starts rolling off at around10kHz and is, most likely, -10dB or more by 15kHz. Taking the 5-40 kHz 'super tweeter as an example, without a suitable crossover, it is probably reproducing from, maybe as low as 1 kHz kHz but even your son can't hear the frequencies above, say, 15 kHz*.

The quoted frequency response of the 5-40 kHz tweeter should also have limits, usually 0 to -3 dB or 0 to -10 dB but that doesn't;t mean it won't reproduce anything below 5 kHz just that it won't reproduce it as loud for a given input as the frequencies within it's quoted frequency range. What you son is hearing as 'better' top end is the 1- 15 kHz range the super tweeter is reproducing added to the reduced top end the PV horn is reproducing. Basically sticking any tweeter in there in addition to the PV horn will make the top end more prominent. Whether it will sound better (rather than just louder) is entirely another matter.

* Now a cautionary note... I'm also guessing that you listen to quite a lot of loud music, and that you are 40+ years old? I'm 67 and listened to a moderate amount of loud music over the years, my hearing is pretty shot over about 12kHz, it is likely that your hearing is deteriorating at the top end (it does so simply due to the effects of getting older regardless of the loud music/noises we all encounter in day to day life). Prolonged exposure to loud music will accelerate the decline and chasing more top end to compensate will just make it happen sooner.
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