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Neumann KH80+KH750 'Unvarnished Review'

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Re: Neumann KH80+KH750 'Unvarnished Review' -- Update: DSP Functions

Postby Mike Senior » Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:36 am

Hello again,

It looks like the problem with my KH80+KH750 review system was a one-off initialisation thing -- and not something hamfisted I did, thankfully, although I'd be prepared to hear that I'd been an idiot somehow. (Wouldn't be the first time!) Here are the details:

Neumann KH80+KH750 Update #2

They're shipping the system back to me again, so I'll post again when I've had a chance to check it out again.
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Re: Neumann KH80+KH750 'Unvarnished Review'

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:08 am

That appears to be a locked file, Mike. Is that intentional?
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Re: Neumann KH80+KH750 'Unvarnished Review'

Postby Mike Senior » Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:26 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:That appears to be a locked file, Mike. Is that intentional?

Nope -- just unlocked it!
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Re: Neumann KH80+KH750 'Unvarnished Review'

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:52 pm

:thumbup: :D
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Re: Neumann KH80+KH750 'Unvarnished Review'

Postby Mike Senior » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:28 am

Hello again!

OK -- I've had the system back from Neumann R&D, and the stereo problem I had has been dealt with. So here's my impressions of the Control App's phase-optimisation routine:

Neumann KH80+KH750 Update #3

What a product. :clap:
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Re: Neumann KH80+KH750 'Unvarnished Review'

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:19 am

Thanks for the update, Mike. I'm pleased you've found that the DSP functions work well -- as they should.

However, happy as I am with the concept, I have to say that three things really put me off it.

1) the Remote app is only available on an iPad,

and 2) they've been working on this app quite literally for bloomin' years now, and it's still only available on the iPad.

There is simply no excuse for that...

oh, and 3) not everyone has a frickin' iPad!

I don't have a current iPad and I have absolutely no intention of buying one just to perform a one-time setup of a DSP speaker system.

They really do need to produce a Mac/PC control app as a matter of extreme urgency because if I went down this route I'd want to be able to set up my DSP speakers from the computer, not a tablet. At a push I could be persuaded to do it from an Android phone... but they haven't even provided that option!

I don't know the reason for this extreme tardiness in porting the control app to other platforms; I can't believe it's a rational policy decision, so I can only assume Neumann either doesn't have sufficient in-house expertise, or can't or won't find appropriate external support for some reason. :-(

It's very disappointing, and especially when their competitors can manage multi-platform configuration facilities.
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Re: Neumann KH80+KH750 'Unvarnished Review'

Postby James Perrett » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:31 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:They really do need to produce a Mac/PC control app as a matter of extreme urgency because if I went down this route I'd want to be able to set up my DSP speakers from the PC, or at a push, an Android phone...

Or perhaps publish the communications protocol so that third parties can build the control functionality into their apps.
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Re: Neumann KH80+KH750 'Unvarnished Review'

Postby Ramirez » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:59 pm

The K80 are very tempting indeed, and Gear4Music have pairs for what seems an exceptionally good price at the moment.

I don't want to start a new whole new thread about it, so I'll ask here:

If I were to buy a pair of KH80, it would mean movving on my AE22. Does anyone have experience of both? Would it be an upgrade or more of a sideways step?

I really like the AE22, but I use the KH120 often and like them too - but I don't think they're a clear step up in quality either.

The portablility of the KH80 appeals, as well as the fact that its a current, supported product.
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Re: Neumann KH80+KH750 'Unvarnished Review'

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:32 pm

I think the DSP correction built in to the KH80 makes it a small but worthwhile step up from the KH120 in terms of midrange clarity and precision, so by extension it would also be a small but worthwhile step up from the AE22...

...but the AE22 has a greater ability to put out low end welly than either the KH120 or the KH80, if that's important to you.
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Re: Neumann KH80+KH750 'Unvarnished Review'

Postby blinddrew » Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:12 pm

Ramirez wrote:The portablility of the KH80 appeals, as well as the fact that its a current, supported product.
They really are quite dinky so even putting them back in their very well padded boxes still leaves them as a very compact option for taking on location. :)
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Re: Neumann KH80+KH750 'Unvarnished Review'

Postby Mike Senior » Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:34 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:1) the Remote app is only available on an iPad,
and 2) they've been working on this app quite literally for bloomin' years now, and it's still only available on the iPad.
There is simply no excuse for that...
oh, and 3) not everyone has a frickin' iPad!
I don't have a current iPad and I have absolutely no intention of buying one just to perform a one-time setup of a DSP speaker system.

Agree 100% there. That is a duffer. Reading between the lines of my conversation with Neumann R&D, I think the problem is simply that they underestimated the difficulty of developing the app, and therefore haven't invested enough time and manpower into that part of the project. I got the sense that it had been a bit of a headache for them. Fortunately, the annoyance of this is mitigated somewhat by the system being cracking value even in the Local Control Mode.

Oh, and given that the setup will for most people be a set-and-forget business, some people may be able to circumvent this limitation in practice by borrowing an iPad from a friend. Er, and maybe a WIFI router and some ethernet cables too... :roll:
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Re: Neumann KH80+KH750 'Unvarnished Review'

Postby Wonks » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:07 pm

I'm sure Hugh and Paul will be more than happy to use the SOS iPad and routers to go round the country setting them up for SOS readers. ;)
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Re: Neumann KH80+KH750 'Unvarnished Review'

Postby Ramirez » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:08 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:I think the DSP correction built in to the KH80 makes it a small but worthwhile step up from the KH120 in terms of midrange clarity and precision, so by extension it would also be a small but worthwhile step up from the AE22...

...but the AE22 has a greater ability to put out low end welly than either the KH120 or the KH80, if that's important to you.

Thanks Hugh.

Low end would not really be an issue as, apart from location jobs, they'd be in the same room as a massive pair of ATCs anyway.

And if they ever were to find a new home where the extra low end would be welcome, there's always the KH750...

Now to see what my AE22 are worth...
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Re: Neumann KH80+KH750 'Unvarnished Review'

Postby Watchmaker » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:39 pm

I just received my new KH80s and they are really a massive improvement over the prior pair. I won't say what they were as it's embarrassing but the high end is so much more articulate and there's simply no comparison for the quality of low end reproduction. It's obvious that what I was using before was crap and I used it too long! Not to underestimate the value of room treatment, but a good pair of monitors really does help a lot.

I admit the DSP functionality swayed me away from the direct competition. It gave me an excuse to dust off the mostly useless ipad I have laying around so I feel less foolish for having bought it. Like others, I'm underwhelmed by the app.

The speakers themselves though are so good, I'm going back and remixing the last half dozen pieces, one in particularly difficult mix has finally come to life now that I can hear with reasonable clarity and I'm super excited to get home for the long weekend and lock myself in!

One challenge a lot of us project level folks run into is having neither time nor availability to visit a quality showroom and we're left to make decisions "blind" as it were. With the KH80s I feel confident that I'm getting pro level results from my gear. As I probably couldn't tell the difference between top tier monitors anyway, it's nice to have a set of monitors I grow into knowing they are high quality and highly respected by real pros. Thanks for the in depth review Mike. Very helpful.
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Re: Neumann KH80+KH750 'Unvarnished Review'

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:53 pm

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Re: Neumann KH80+KH750 'Unvarnished Review'

Postby Watchmaker » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:38 pm

yes, of course, my bad and most humble apologies. :headbang: :headbang:

Your's is the article that pricked my ears in the first instance. I've been eyeing new monitors for over a year.I wasn't swayed by these though:

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/adam-t7v
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/focal-alpha-65

I read pretty much every word on SOS :-) This time it comes down the product and the presentation. Mike's article just sealed the deal.
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Re: Neumann KH80+KH750 'Unvarnished Review'

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:36 am

;) :thumbup:
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Re: Neumann KH80+KH750 'Unvarnished Review'

Postby Mike Senior » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:00 am

Watchmaker wrote:I read pretty much every word on SOS :-) This time it comes down the product and the presentation. Mike's article just sealed the deal.

Go Team SOS! :D
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Re: Neumann KH80+KH750 'Unvarnished Review'

Postby blinddrew » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:14 pm

Have to say, I am wondering how much you get for a kidney these days. Lightly used... ;)
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Re: Neumann KH80+KH750 'Unvarnished Review'

Postby Wonks » Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:15 am

blinddrew wrote:Have to say, I am wondering how much you get for a kidney these days. Lightly used... ;)
You've already sold two.
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