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%&&**! You Phil Ward!

Postby ef37a » Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:31 am

I wus 'appy, fairly. I had read Hugh's glowing report on the Result Six and decided. "Them's for me!"
No, I cannot afford them, yet, things are in a state of flux and I cannot responsibly take on that sort of debt but I could see that one day I would be able to buy a pair of really great monitors (presently have Tannoy Reveal 5As and Mission 775)

Then Phil, blast him, comes up with the APS Klasik 2020s in the December issue! "Ever so ever so good and affordable! I 'could' get those for Christmas, just. But, ARE they AS good as the Sixes? I also like the clean, simplicity of the Six but they are a lot more money.

Dave.
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Re: %&&**! You Phil Ward!

Postby Arpangel » Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:04 am

This is something I’m going to have to address at some point Dave and I’m dreading it.
How can you seriously audition things at the moment? unless you buy them and have to go through all the hassle of returning if you don’t like them? Plus, you can’t compare things.
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Re: %&&**! You Phil Ward!

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:05 pm

All I can say is that It takes a lot to impress Phil....
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Re: %&&**! You Phil Ward!

Postby ef37a » Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:33 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:All I can say is that It takes a lot to impress Phil....

I get that impression as well Hugh. But have you heard the 2020s? Has Phil heard the R6?

This will be the last, major thing I buy and I do not want to 'buy cheap' and then wonder for the rest of me puff "SHOULD I have spent that other bag and a half?"

My requirements are modest. I do not want a max SPL much above 100dB and I do not want window rattling bass on rock (have the Missions for that!) No, my main concern is a very clear midrange to combat my lugloss, treble say, over 5kHz is forever a foreign land to me now.

Even something many folks blessed with '20-20 hearing would judge a bit 'forward' would suit me better than 'smooth'.

I guess, I want the Tannoys but more sophisticated and with a bit more level?

Dave.
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Re: %&&**! You Phil Ward!

Postby Arpangel » Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:56 am

ef37a wrote:
Hugh Robjohns wrote:All I can say is that It takes a lot to impress Phil....

I get that impression as well Hugh. But have you heard the 2020s? Has Phil heard the R6?

This will be the last, major thing I buy and I do not want to 'buy cheap' and then wonder for the rest of me puff "SHOULD I have spent that other bag and a half?"

My requirements are modest. I do not want a max SPL much above 100dB and I do not want window rattling bass on rock (have the Missions for that!) No, my main concern is a very clear midrange to combat my lugloss, treble say, over 5kHz is forever a foreign land to me now.

Even something many folks blessed with '20-20 hearing would judge a bit 'forward' would suit me better than 'smooth'.

I guess, I want the Tannoys but more sophisticated and with a bit more level?

Dave.

This could be complex, I’m not sure Dave, I wouldn’t come to any conclusions about your hearing just yet, it may be better than you think, and the human brain is a great compensator. I’d leave your ears out of the equation at the mo, it could only confuse things.
OK, I’ve always thought the Tannoy Reveals to be a tad on the dark side anyway, dare I say it, even muddy, I’d go as far as to say that my Behringer Truths have a more detail :crazy:
I’d choose the Reveals as a nice smooth speaker for someone who didn’t like a brighter sound.
I haven’t heard those two you’re considering, but I’d definitely have a listen to a few things, when things have calmed down, before making up your mind.
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Re: %&&**! You Phil Ward!

Postby ef37a » Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:31 am

Arpangel wrote:
ef37a wrote:
Hugh Robjohns wrote:All I can say is that It takes a lot to impress Phil....

I get that impression as well Hugh. But have you heard the 2020s? Has Phil heard the R6?

This will be the last, major thing I buy and I do not want to 'buy cheap' and then wonder for the rest of me puff "SHOULD I have spent that other bag and a half?"

My requirements are modest. I do not want a max SPL much above 100dB and I do not want window rattling bass on rock (have the Missions for that!) No, my main concern is a very clear midrange to combat my lugloss, treble say, over 5kHz is forever a foreign land to me now.

Even something many folks blessed with '20-20 hearing would judge a bit 'forward' would suit me better than 'smooth'.

My hearing loss is not up for question T. Had the NHS tests, got the curves and the digital aids!
I am progressively low to 2kHz and then go of a cliff. Most of the top string of the violin is lost to me as is the last octave of the grand Joe. I just hear the 'clunk'. The two ears are rather different in loss but that does not seem to affect my localization.

The Tannoys were purchased many years ago. The reasons for my choice went thus...

A blind 'shootout' in another magazine showed the 5As and something of Giant Killers, being picked up as better than other, more expensive speakers.

Tannoy are a very old and well respected audio company (they have the rare distinction along with 'Hoover! as being a generic name!) They have had speakers in studios for most of my 3 score and ten+5 they therefore have a reputation to uphold.

Tannoy do not make every other electronic gimmcrack and toy.

The price was within my grasp.

Behringer are the Marmite of the audio industry. They made mainly low grade gear until the advent of the X32 range. I do not like many of their business practices* (and Uli bottled the SOS Q&A!) but one cannot deny they have nade some very decent kit at a cost level that the home bod can afford.

But, the world of transducers is NOT the same as SMT electronics. I know how analogue electronics works to a fair level and know how cheaply even very sophisticated circuitry can now be made. The same is not true of loudspeakers. Anyone can stuff a set of cheap woofers and tweeters in a box (you only need a Stanly rule to copy the comp'!) fit it up with a pair of 'plate' amplifiers and Bish-Bosh, you got a monitor speaker...No, you don't, you just ha a ripped off box with cheapo speakers in it.

Until and unless someone of the high standards and larnin' of Phil or Hugh tells us "The Truths are superb monitors, sell you granny and get a pair NOW!" They won't get my custom.

Maybe I am a cynical old B but When £950 can buy you the 202os I think asking £1100 for two small 'bassless' noisy boxes is taking the ***s! (in the Nov mag.)

*Stop copying "our" 'king amps!

Dave.

I guess, I want the Tannoys but more sophisticated and with a bit more level?

Dave.

This could be complex, I’m not sure Dave, I wouldn’t come to any conclusions about your hearing just yet, it may be better than you think, and the human brain is a great compensator. I’d leave your ears out of the equation at the mo, it could only confuse things.
OK, I’ve always thought the Tannoy Reveals to be a tad on the dark side anyway, dare I say it, even muddy, I’d go as far as to say that my Behringer Truths have a more detail :crazy:
I’d choose the Reveals as a nice smooth speaker for someone who didn’t like a brighter sound.
I haven’t heard those two you’re considering, but I’d definitely have a listen to a few things, when things have calmed down, before making up your mind.

Cocked that up a bit but, I often do with SOS quotes!
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Re: %&&**! You Phil Ward!

Postby Arpangel » Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:01 am

I’ve owned Tannoy Little Reds, and Cheviots, both classic Tannoy dual concentric speakers.
The Reveals even though made by Tannoy, as good as they are, are a completely different sound, well known studios of the past chose Tannoy because of certain characteristics, fantastic stereo imaging, from the concentric drivers, often favoured by classical engineers, plus, there wasn’t much else around to choose from!
I think Tannoy now, is basically just a name, it has little to do with their classic speakers of old.
When I had my Little Reds, my god, top end? what top end?! they are a nice cozy warm comforting speaker, that I absolutely loved at the time, but like you, my hearing has gone a bit, and now they just sound muddy to me.
My Cheviots were different, very open sounding, lots of detail, with the usual mind blowing stereo imagery, they’ve been described as being a bit metallic, or "clangy" but I loved those too.
I changed them for a pair of KLH Model 5’s, which I had for years.
My Behringers just ended up here, a friend had a pair, and I borrowed them, after listening to loads of high end monitors in my place, I decided it wasn’t worth’s spending thousands more, so the Berry’s are still here.
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Re: %&&**! You Phil Ward!

Postby James Perrett » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:47 pm

ef37a wrote:Tannoy are a very old and well respected audio company (they have the rare distinction along with 'Hoover! as being a generic name!) They have had speakers in studios for most of my 3 score and ten+5 they therefore have a reputation to uphold.

Tannoy do not make every other electronic gimmcrack and toy.


Sadly Tannoy are now part of the Behringer empire. However their budget dual concentric monitors certainly look interesting but I've yet to see an authoritative review.
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Re: %&&**! You Phil Ward!

Postby ef37a » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:05 pm

James Perrett wrote:
ef37a wrote:Tannoy are a very old and well respected audio company (they have the rare distinction along with 'Hoover! as being a generic name!) They have had speakers in studios for most of my 3 score and ten+5 they therefore have a reputation to uphold.

Tannoy do not make every other electronic gimmcrack and toy.


Sadly Tannoy are now part of the Behringer empire. However their budget dual concentric monitors certainly look interesting but I've yet to see an authoritative review.
Indeed but not when I bought mine.

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Re: %&&**! You Phil Ward!

Postby Arpangel » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:35 am

James Perrett wrote:
ef37a wrote:Tannoy are a very old and well respected audio company (they have the rare distinction along with 'Hoover! as being a generic name!) They have had speakers in studios for most of my 3 score and ten+5 they therefore have a reputation to uphold.

Tannoy do not make every other electronic gimmcrack and toy.


Sadly Tannoy are now part of the Behringer empire. However their budget dual concentric monitors certainly look interesting but I've yet to see an authoritative review.

HHmmm? Hadn’t noticed these, but they’re slipping, they need to make at least a 10 12 or 15 inch.

:)

https://www.thomann.de/gb/tannoy_gold_8.htm?sid=8a59eba30b66e6c903ddf9b8054507d2

Just noticed that Tannoy "also" :roll: are jumping on the legacy bandwagon, so most of the classics are now available, but how about a pair of these? very competitively priced as well...

https://www.audioaffair.co.uk/tannoy-prestige-westminster-gr-icon-audio-mb81-pair-la5-valve-system

:D
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Re: %&&**! You Phil Ward!

Postby Phil Ward » Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:59 pm

Oh blimey what have I done....

To answer the question further up the page, no I've not heard the Result 6. I do know very well the kind of standards the folks at PMC aim for though so I'd expect them to be extremely capable monitors. They are however around twice the price of the APS Klasik 2020, with which I was so impressed.

I guess then, the question is; will the Result 6 offer twice the value of ownership over the Klasik 2020. But of course it's impossible for me to answer that – not least 'cause different elements of performance and different design characteristics are important to different people to different degrees. So it's very much a personal judgement.

I don't think APS will mind me saying that the Klasik 2020 is built to a budget (that's actually part of its success). The designers and people involved in its manufacture have stripped away pretty much everything other than the bits needed to make it do the monitoring job really well. Black-ash plastic laminate is, for example, just about as inexpensive way of covering a cabinet as you'll find. The Result 6 has significantly higher aspirations in terms of component quality, finish and aesthetic vibe. A Volkswagen Up and an Audi A3 will both get you from A to B, but many would say A1 is a classier way to travel.

I was genuinely really impressed with the Klasik 2020. It did that high-end monitor thing of providing a wider window and more detailed view of mix elements, while at the same time offering the kind of neutral tonal balance and trustworthy low end that will make it reliable in terms of translation. It's a combination of characteristics that's pretty rare at the price - hence the review.

I fear that might not help hugely in any decision to be made between the Klasik and the Result 6, but maybe it adds a bit more context.
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Re: %&&**! You Phil Ward!

Postby ef37a » Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:12 pm

Thank you so much for your comments Phil, as you say, you can't really help me but extra information is always helpful.

I could afford the 2020s but will resist. My life is in a state of flux at the moment and I am really not in a position to sit back and enjoy music for any great periods of time. Yes, that is the main use any monitors would get, I am not doing recording in any serious way at all.
I have always wanted some really high end speakers, love ESLs but no room. The products of the hi fi industry I no longer trust (why use PTFE wire in a speaker? Is it going to catch fire?)
I am convinced that the £2,400 cost of the R6s will get me a better product than the same money in a hi fi shop, and I get the amps as well!

Dave.
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Re: %&&**! You Phil Ward!

Postby Arpangel » Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:27 am

ef37a wrote:Thank you so much for your comments Phil, as you say, you can't really help me but extra information is always helpful.

I could afford the 2020s but will resist. My life is in a state of flux at the moment and I am really not in a position to sit back and enjoy music for any great periods of time. Yes, that is the main use any monitors would get, I am not doing recording in any serious way at all.
I have always wanted some really high end speakers, love ESLs but no room. The products of the hi fi industry I no longer trust (why use PTFE wire in a speaker? Is it going to catch fire?)
I am convinced that the £2,400 cost of the R6s will get me a better product than the same money in a hi fi shop, and I get the amps as well!

Dave.

I thinks it’s a testament though, why these older products are being reissued, they were good then, and they still are, monitors are a separate issue, and I agree with you about where to spend your money, but I think all those years ago they got it right, and things haven’t really moved on.
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Re: %&&**! You Phil Ward!

Postby ef37a » Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:31 am

Arpangel wrote:
ef37a wrote:Thank you so much for your comments Phil, as you say, you can't really help me but extra information is always helpful.

I could afford the 2020s but will resist. My life is in a state of flux at the moment and I am really not in a position to sit back and enjoy music for any great periods of time. Yes, that is the main use any monitors would get, I am not doing recording in any serious way at all.
I have always wanted some really high end speakers, love ESLs but no room. The products of the hi fi industry I no longer trust (why use PTFE wire in a speaker? Is it going to catch fire?)
I am convinced that the £2,400 cost of the R6s will get me a better product than the same money in a hi fi shop, and I get the amps as well!

Dave.

I thinks it’s a testament though, why these older products are being reissued, they were good then, and they still are, monitors are a separate issue, and I agree with you about where to spend your money, but I think all those years ago they got it right, and things haven’t really moved on.

If you mean the ESL Tony, I agree with you. If you mean those stupid, climate busting amplifiers? No WAY!

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Re: %&&**! You Phil Ward!

Postby Arpangel » Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:47 am

ef37a wrote:
If you mean the ESL Tony, I agree with you. If you mean those stupid, climate busting amplifiers? No WAY!

Dave.

Yes, the ESL's were great, very sensitive to climate though, easily upset by the slightest amount of dampness.
I’d still like a decent valve amplifier, but can’t justify the cost, the Croft Integrated looks tasty, but I’ll stick with my Quads.
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