SOUND ON SOUND

Quote, ‘You're not just competing with...but with all the greats from the past from ABBA. ...not enough to be the next Prince you have to be better.'

Not true/bad advice/piffle? Take your pic (er, box 13 Des, er, 'ughie.)

In the same way that most, if not all, of the old fogies 'ear are of the expert opinion that Dance music ain't proper music... young 'uns won't be buying, er, lissenin' to, Genesis, Gabriel, Wakeman, et al, it'll be The 'oo, Talking 'eads, Stones, Floyd, 'endrix, Free, Motown, et al, I got a list as long as yer armalite... only the young un's are right innit.

Picasso, Durer, Mozart, Beethoven, Brian Wilson, Beatles, Dylan, Pink Floyd, Prince say, it don't get any better than that, that's as good as it gets, Genius if'n you will... and they are few and far between...

The reality is it's never been easier to compete wiv the current er, Top? acts, cos there's none that rival the above... I should know...

Sam Fox, bless 'er rotton cotton socks, 'as sold 40 odd million slates, so you don't even 'ave to be any good to 'ave a crack/smash 'it, I should know...

Easier to compete yeah, yet harder to stand out from the crowd maybe cos da world und 'is misssus can do it, to degree, mostly lesser...

I'm as good as any of the acts topping the charts... I recently after, I dunno, a good few years got a play on da Beeb's Introducing, big deal eh, merely/purely by provoking them, challenging their 'expert' opinion, i.e not bleedin' playin it, and then proving the tracks' worth, seems I'm an expert too eh... it's no better than any of the others I uploaded yonks ago...

Wot pisses me 0rf, is I'm constantly being judged by others that know much less, zilch kazoo even, about my chosen Art than I myself do... and these so-called experts are the ones that can make it 'appen, erm, or not...

If I didn't fink I could compete wiv da likes of, say, Liam Gallagher, Ed Sheeran et al, I'd give up... any fool can do it, to degree... I should know...

You can either do something or you can't...

I rest me case M'lud.

Watch dis space...


Errm, wot drug prescriptions is your Photographer taking?



Jus’ curious…

[desmond]

All that text, and still so difficult to understand what you are saying... :headbang:

I *think* what you are saying is that you are obviously brilliant, but annoyed that no one seems to recognise this fact?

Ahh Desmundo, a fellow expert eh?

Must admit ol’ bean I’m a tad disappointed wiv your gratuitous ungracious und inaccurate remark…

I’m saying precisely the opposite, I’m saying todays acts, not unlike my good little self ain’t even ‘alf as good as some of the BRILLIANT acts of da past…

If you have no point to make other than small-minded petty trivial biased dribble, er, drivel…

Track in question was the track you didn’t rate very highly sir… presenter said it was expertly mixed… and had amazing samples…, wot does ‘e know eh.

Cain’t be both Des, ‘tis either a decent piece of work or not, cain’t be both, I know which one my money’s on…

I don’t ‘ave a prob wiv people not digging my stuff, like it or lump it makes no diff to moi, unless of course you know, and/or can do better, can/do you?

I’m happy for you/others to tell me exactly wot the problem wiv my music is… cos then perhaps wiv your expert guidance I’ll be able to improve it will I not? get it up to your high standards perhaps?

So, anything constructive or sensible to say Des…?

I’m all ears mate.

[Forum Admin]

At least us old fogies can spell. :smirk:

Grammar and spelling were created for a reason - to make it easier to understand the meaning of what is being said/written. I know language evolves and that this may be considered 'only a forum' but...

Your opinion is as valid as another person's but you do yourself no service whatsoever writing in that fake street patois, LdashD.

Maybe others in the industry who want to elevate you to stardom are reading your posts and thinking "what on earth is he on about?" ...I know I am.

[desmond]

Must admit ol’ bean I’m a tad disappointed wiv your gratuitous ungracious und inaccurate remark…

All I said I didn't really understand your point. Given that you (seemingly intentionally) want to make your communication here as difficult as possible to understand, it doesn't seem inaccurate.

I’m saying precisely the opposite, I’m saying todays acts, not unlike my good little self ain’t even ‘alf as good as some of the BRILLIANT acts of da past…

Sure. And there are also some brilliant musicians around today who are way better than some of the chart drivel of the 70s and 80s. There are always brilliant people, making brilliant work, and ones that aren't so good, making poor work for a bunch of reasons. It depends on what you are comparing on both sides. We tend to forget the crap of old, and only remember the great stuff, as a rule.

The only real difference is now, a few hundred quid let's anyone make a "record", whereas in the past, you had to at least jump through the hoops of getting people to at least let you, and pay for, making a record, and putting it out there - which cuts out *some* of the bottom end of the talent pool.

I could make a further point that today, at least in contemporary terms, you can get away making a "song" without really doing much "song-writing" these days. Stick up a good sounding beat (easy enough), arrange a few samples and a bass line, don't worry about chord changes, arrangement, or dynamics (we can always drop some stuff in and out on mutes), and get a singer to warble a "top line" over the top, add a few plugin presets, and we're done.

I personally value the art of songwriting, and without doing the analysis, I'd say that there were more "proper songs" in the charts in the 60s-90s, and more "dance-beat" type stuff starting in the 90s and coming through today. (Without making me sound like a fuddy-duddy - I don't mean to say a song is always better than a beat-type-thing - some people do that brilliantly too. There is great work in all genres. I think Jon Hopkins as one example is doing outstanding work in the EDM genre.)

So, anything constructive or sensible to say Des…? I’m all ears mate.

You seem to have taken my above comment about not understanding what you were saying in your post (which is not unique to me, BTW), as somehow a judgement on your music. I haven't listened to anything of yours, except I think once gave you some of my opinions on one of your tracks (as you were asking) and you seemed grateful enough for it, as I remember. And I can't remember anything about the track offhand. So no judgement of your music from me, here.

What I *do* remember, much more so than your music, is many of your forum posts here over and over again telling us all how brilliant you are. I admire the self-belief (I really do) but (personally speaking) I find it gets rather tiresome after a while. Maybe if it was kept to the self-promotion forum, then fine, but the rest of the time, we're here to share, converse, and help each other.

No offence intended - really. I just think your contributions here would be more valuable if you tried to communicate in a way that gets your point across, rather than this very hard to follow fake writing style you insist on using. No-one's going to force you to stop it, but all we can do is *ask* you - or you will continue to be misunderstood. I don't know... maybe that's the intention all along... :shrugs:.

[Richie Royale]

All that text, and still so difficult to understand what you are saying... :headbang:

I rarely even bother to read what he's written. It must take twice as long to compose a post in that twaddle than it does a normal sentence.

Ain't got a clue what yer on about Lash. :(

[job]

I wholeheartedly disagree LD! Beethoven and Mozart over Djawadi and Zimmer? Like, seriously? /boggle. Muse > Beatles. Explosion in the sky > Floyd. Imogen > Dylan. Fever Ray/The knife > Prince. Easy. The list goes on. On the shoulders of giants and all that.

Or maybe it's all subjective...

...a small bird will fall frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself.

ps. that cover was cool! Posh even. I like it! :thumbup:

[Alba]

I watched a good XTC documentary 'this is pop' on a recent plane journey... Very interesting and recommended.

I think you're right and wrong OP. I'm not sure what you're saying here...

In the same way that most, if not all, of the old fogies 'ear are of the expert opinion that Dance music ain't proper music... young 'uns won't be buying, er, lissenin' to, Genesis, Gabriel, Wakeman, et al, it'll be The 'oo, Talking 'eads, Stones, Floyd, 'endrix, Free, Motown, et al, I got a list as long as yer armalite... only the young un's are right innit.

But if you're saying that the younguns aren't listening to these golden era artists then i have to disagree. If the web tech has done anything its made music choices far less tribal than in my youth and i find young people have very eclectic tastes. At least the ones i know who work in the local bars do.

I didn't get all of your text, well i got it but i got confused about the direction of your thinking... but i didn't get Joyce's 'portrait of the artist .... ' either so i won't judge.

Hey Alba, I’m saying that Picasso’s genius does not rest on someone’s opinion no matter how ‘well-educated/informed’ ignorant or ill-informed? that opinion is.

I’m saying just cos people, lots ‘n’ lots of people even, think something is good/great it doesn’t mean it is.

A work of Art is either good or bad or indifferent, it can’t be all three… I’m saying there’s objectivity in Art/music, also in, well let’s say ‘lesser’ arts, Films, Ad’s, Dance, Design, Fashion etc…

I’m saying there’s nature-given harmonic rules to music, and the colours of a painting need to harmonise, both are subject to the laws of nature/physics… those that are aware of and understand that concept can accurately predict wot is decent and wot is old tatt,

I’ve proved this, (and continue to prove this) on many an occasion down many years… you got my drift you should be able to work out the rest…

One needs to acknowledge and then learn/experience and then come to understand these rules… it starts young…

I’m an aesthete, have been (unknowingly of course) from an early age… not every man is, many, as youths, preferred maybe soldering… so it’s logical to assume that my right hemisphere…

I’m saying everybody has and is entitled to an opinion, right or wrong, but not all opinions are, much like Art, equal, some also happen to be facts.

But most of all I’m saying, my man Vincent sold only one picture in his life… critics of the day? some experts eh.

Before you can produce any work of quality you need to recognise that quality in others work, as a songwriter you are wot you listen to, if you listen to average music, then that’s exactly wot you’ll produce… if on the other hand you have impeccable taste, then lo und behold, Bob’s yer Aunt & Fanny’s yer transgender Uncle, da worlds’ your bleedin’ oyster innit.

Could be wrong though, ’tis only me, ever so ‘Very ‘eavy Very ‘umble’ opinion, whoops sorry boss… right or wrong I am entitled to it after all am I not.

[Forum Admin]

What are you talkin’ bout?

I give up. Life’s too short to decipher meaning where there is none. Peel off all the layers of an onion and that’s what’s left...

[fatbenelton]

A work of Art is either good or bad or indifferent, it can’t be all three…

Of course it can....to different people..Art, by definition is subjective. We all experience things in different ways and what I like may not be what you like and vice versa....there is no universal objective rating for good or bad.

I love Kraftwerk, my wife thinks they are crap...I can rant on about their significance and influence on a wide genre of music from electro to hip hop but that won't suddenly make her like the actual music - However, she can understand and respect the impact whilst still hating Autobahn!

[zenguitar]

L-D, you have the right to talk out of your ass. Just stop expecting me to lip read.

Andy :beamup:

[Kwackman]

you have the right to talk out of your ass. Just stop expecting me to lip read.

Andy :beamup:

I'm going to store that for future use. Thanks!

I’m saying that Craig thinks one needs to better than The Beatles to have any chance of making it, I’m replying by stating that this is impossible cos is doesn’t get any better, only as good as… and that you also don’t have to be that good, as there’s been plenty of old tatt that has topped the charts down the years, say the dreary Thomson Twins, (I’m sure young Ben wiv ‘is logic will or maybe ‘is missus digs ‘em though) since charts began and in my own inimitable way and then in plain Queens English, seems I’m dammed if I do an also if I don’t?

Is dis kinda finkin’, forkin’ flawed?

We all have our unique pointless little idiosyncrasies, especially the elite and the middle-classes, the way one doesn’t hold the knife properly? someone’s plebby accent perhaps… new money… not so moi…well not so much anyway…

None of you seem capable of discussing or have offered any evidence or argument to counter my claims?

I presume you’d all agree that The Beatles were better songsmiths than me, yes, well then, we have something to measure the aesthetic by do we not?

Wot is it that makes their stuff ‘better’? than mine… I know, do you.

My only overall ENCOURAGING point is, you don’t have to be better than the Beatles and also that you don’t even have to be that good, … I should bloody know. Again, Ben and/or ‘is missus can vouch for that.

An’ you’ve given up on me before Boss…

I don’t understand wot bleedin’ you know Hugh is always on about, so it follows that those ‘oo are ‘andy wiv a soldering iron won’t understand wot I’m on about, that’s vaguely understandable, is it not. It perhaps requires some lateral t’inking or tinkering on your part though…

I know exactly why it is that I can do wot I do…

Paul White bemoaned a while back in his leader that there’s no outlet for his/others instrumental music, or similar, well believe it or not dance music especially club tracks are mostly instrumental, so if Paul and others had kept up with the changing tides of music, not unlike my good little self… need I say more.

SOS, like Rec co’s etc, is a bizness, and like all biznesses you want my money and you no doubt try to think of more ways to get money out of your punters therefore you must have ulterior motives, not so me…

Wot didn’t you all understand there then?

Your hugely intellectually entertaining input is always welcome Z-geetar, ever thought about going into comedy matey… I’d advise against it cos you’ll probably die poor… but a know-it-all clever clogs like you wouldn’t need no advice would ya laddy.

I think it’s a tad arrogant of you all to believe your opinion is somehow superior to mine when you don’t/can’t back it up with anything substantial that proves otherwise? I’m more than happy to be put straight… as I will have learnt something new about the aesthetic and indeed myself, my art even, all very useful… any offers? I’m all for learning, ‘ow about yous lot.

Er, after seeing kwackmans comment, I'll give you dat one Z-G, da humour went above me 'ead, which is kinda strange considering the size of it eh. I'll be using dat in da future too... lip read indeed. Looks like you won't be dying poor then.

[Alba]

A work of Art is either good or bad or indifferent, it can’t be all three…

Of course it can....to different people..Art, by definition is subjective.

I'd go further than that and say that a work of art can be all three even to the originating artist - at different times. I know that's true of my own work. I know others that feel the same way and i'm sure its a pretty common phenomenon.

[Alba]

I think this Gerry Garcia quote is more to it..

You do not merely want to be considered the best of the best. You want to be considered the only ones that do what you do.

And if you take that to its logical conclusion: as we're all different with different experiences then if we are true and honest in the creation, we will be the only ones doing what we do.

[job]

None of you seem capable of discussing or have offered any evidence or argument to counter my claims?

Off topic, i guess, but... I think the reason might be lack of clarity. Compare your above writing to this sentence:

I’m saying that Craig thinks one needs to better than The Beatles to have any chance of making it, I’m replying by stating that this is impossible cos is doesn’t get any better, only as good as… and that you also don’t have to be that good, as there’s been plenty of old tatt that has topped the charts down the years...

That makes a clearer point. Did you say this above in your other posts? Maybe, but i, for one, missed it as being the main point you were trying to make, and i'm somewhat confident you didn't say it as directly.

To revisit a point others have somewhat addressed before, I think you mistakenly think it's the reader's job to understand. It isn't. It's the writer's job to be understood. You should assume one thing of a reader and that's their ability to read the language that you've written in. If your writing isn't clear or you don't use the words that accurately describe your thoughts or you don't structure sentences correctly... you're going to be misunderstood. Hell, something as simple as a misplaced comma can throw up a different meaning to a sentence.

Your writing style is difficult to understand for most people. It is. Just accept that. Ergo, you're going to be misunderstood! It's difficult enough for me to read that i just skim read you, and i managed to get through your OP in 30s or something. I thought you were making 2 points, first that you think you're a better music producer than most, and since you haven't made it skill is therefore not a factor, which invalidates Anderton's argument. And second, producers/bands/musicians/etc., of today aren't as good as they were in the past, which is a second nail in the coffin for the claim.

I misunderstood you... because i skim read you... because you're difficult to understand. Is that unfair? Maybe. But it's equally unfair to write in an awkward, informal, conversational, fragmented style and then bemoan readers for not understanding what you've written. Threads and meaning can easily get lost in the written word, even when the writing is good. You owe it to the reader to be as clear and concise as you are able if you want them to understand what you've written. There'll still be those who will read what they want to read, or second guess you, or quote out of context, etc., so don't worry about being viewed as a contrarian, just worry about being understood.

You obviously want to be understood, so just write clearly and you will have it :thumbup:

All my fault then.

I presume you’re not all experts on Art/painting as well as music nethertheless you will have formed, not exactly opinions, more like, ‘I like this that or the other’…’ or, ‘I don’t like this that or the other,’ however that’s not an opinion it’s a preference, like liking tomatoes, or not.

For arguments sake let’s say Ben thinks my paintings are great and ‘is missus don’t, where does that leave me… if they’re great I can continue in the same manner, if not I need help to improve, then again Ben says they’re great, hmmm decisions decisions eh???

And while we’re here are there actually people, experts who exist that could help me achieve my desire to improve… providing of course that Ben’s opinion is wrong about me… perhaps seeing as me mum and me mates reckon I’m a genius shall I just accept their opinion and carry on regardless of wot da world and ‘is wife reckon?

Are there no people in this world who know more about a subject, let’s say the aesthetic intricacies of writing and producing music than most, or is it just me that you think doesn’t, no one can perform this feat, or just me?

George Martin perhaps…did he not know something that most others didn’t, or was it just luck…

Let’s go one stage further, Ben thinks my paintings/sculptures are brilliant, let’s again go further and he also reckons I’m a genius, but Ben thinks my main man Pablos’ work is old tatt, a kid of six could do it even, but his missus reckons Picasso’s work is far superior to mine, in fact she thinks Picasso is a genius, so we’re both geniuses then? I mean really? Are you serious? Ben is comparing my amateurish dabblings to Picasso?

Ben put your finkin’ cap on mate, Picasso’s genius does not rest on some bod’s opinion…he is a genius regardless of your or your missus opinion…

Here’s another Genius, Albrecht Dürer, a self portrait at 13 years old child…



And another when much older…



And you’re comparing me and others no doubt, to the likes of ‘im, I mean really, are you serious???????





To be honest I’m really not bovvered whether folks do or do not understand wot I’m rattling on about, dat’s ‘alf da fun innit. And I think the majority ‘ere aren’t in the least bit interested in wot I ‘ave to say, as it generally/probably contradicts their own long held beliefs I suppose, but as the above posts prove, those that are interested only ‘ave to ask, but even when I s-p-e-l-l i-t o-u-t, seems they still don’t get it???

And there is google.

So yes it would seem it is all my fault, er sorry ‘bout dat.


‘We’re in the midst of a heavy-duty showbiz period, even stronger than when we killed it last time’
Keith Richards

This is wot I’m railing against, couldn’t believe it when I read dat a few years ago, so you see it’s not just me… or maybe you guys know better than me an’ Keef eh.

[desmond]

And I think the majority ‘ere aren’t in the least bit interested in wot I ‘ave to say, as it generally/probably contradicts their own long held beliefs I suppose

I've tried *many* times to understand what it is you're trying to say, but I never find it. I'm not sure even you know what you are trying to say. It all seems a bit random stream-of-concious stuff with no real point. It seems what you mostly want to do is have people to debate with on philosophical terms.

To be honest I’m really not bovvered whether folks do or do not understand wot I’m rattling on about

If you were, you'd probably find communication at bit more rewarding.

I go to some pains to try to communicate clearly and effectively - for many reasons, but partly out of respect to the people I'm trying to communicate to. To not bother about *both* sides of a dialogue is to be only interested in what you have to say. And I can't communicate with people like that.