You are here

Starting from scratch article

For feedback and suggestions about the SOS magazine, app, web site or forums.

Re: Starting from scratch article

Postby Wonks » Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:42 pm

Or a comic?
User avatar
Wonks
Jedi Poster
Posts: 8921
Joined: Thu May 29, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Reading, UK
Correcting mistakes on the internet since 1853

Re: Starting from scratch article

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:46 pm

That seems more appropriate... :lol:
User avatar
Hugh Robjohns
Moderator
Posts: 24082
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Re: Starting from scratch article

Postby Wonks » Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:00 pm

Captain Robjohns and the Mighty Hobnob battle against the evil Dr Audio Ignorance and his henchman, Room Modes.

"You don't stand a chance against me and Room Modes, Captain!!!"

"Oh yeah?"

"Get him Room Modes!" (Dr Audio Ignorance runs away)

ROCKWOOL!!!

"Ooof!"

BASS TRAP!!!

"Owwwww!"

CEILING CLOUD!!!

"Uggggh...

...uuuuh." (sound of bucket being kicked)

"I guess we won't be seeing Room Modes back here, Hobnnob, ever again."
User avatar
Wonks
Jedi Poster
Posts: 8921
Joined: Thu May 29, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Reading, UK
Correcting mistakes on the internet since 1853

Re: Starting from scratch article

Postby ef37a » Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:32 am

blinddrew wrote:Briefly back on topic, it occurs to me to wonder, given the learning proclivities of a lot of the people raising these questions, would we be better with a video series?


::: grabs hard hat and ducks :::

No! When I need to find something out I need to READ* it. Having to sit through minutes of often badly done YT is agony and even then the subject I want may not come up. I would also have to don cans and I get enough stick from SWMBO for being on the lappy as it is, if I cut off her waffle she will chuck her walking stick at me.

So, I want a text, with an index if possible.( I could say I even prefer a paper printout but that would nail me as a REALLY old fart!)

*I must look up that Rode Caster that was so loved in the latest issue. I would have liked to have read of much greater criticism about the lack of a .pdf manual, they HAD to have a sciript anyway FCS! I really hope this ia not a trend?

Dave.
ef37a
Jedi Poster
Posts: 10518
Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 12:00 am
Location: northampton uk

Re: Starting from scratch article

Postby BJG145 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:58 am

ef37a wrote:No! When I need to find something out I need to READ it. Having to sit through minutes of often badly done YT is agony

+1

Having all the the YT tutorials out there nowadays is brilliant, but it's been at the expense of illustrated written explanations which are a lot more trouble to create but often much easier to assimilate. That's never coming back though.
User avatar
BJG145
Frequent Poster (Level2)
Posts: 3738
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:00 am

Re: Starting from scratch article

Postby ef37a » Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:07 am

BJG145 wrote:
ef37a wrote:No! When I need to find something out I need to READ it. Having to sit through minutes of often badly done YT is agony

+1

Having all the the YT tutorials out there nowadays is brilliant, but it's been at the expense of illustrated written explanations which are a lot more trouble to create but often much easier to assimilate. That's never coming back though.

Well, we can still complain and perhaps slow down the rot! I have just emailed Rode and made it politely quite palin that my first step toward buying a product is to find a well written specification and .pdf manual. The RodeCaster falls at both fences (though I am sure it is as good as you say Mr W!) . Ok, THAT box of tricks might be very intuitive (to an expert like PW?) but HTH do you consult a video during a session? Especially if you only have one screen. At least you can print out a .pdf.

Dave.
ef37a
Jedi Poster
Posts: 10518
Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 12:00 am
Location: northampton uk

Re: Starting from scratch article

Postby blinddrew » Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:28 am

It's a good point Dave, but i would humbly suggest that you're not really the target market for this series of content. :)
However, in terms of addressing your points: any decent video should have a transcript available, similarly, it's simple to put a table of contents in the intro and notes to show what's being covered, and finally, i'd expect an SOS video to be well produced and to focus on the subject (rather than the presenter - which is a bugbear of mine!)
:)
User avatar
blinddrew
Jedi Poster
Posts: 7646
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:00 am
Location: York
Ignore the post count, I have no idea what I'm doing...

Re: Starting from scratch article

Postby ef37a » Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:44 am

blinddrew wrote:It's a good point Dave, but i would humbly suggest that you're not really the target market for this series of content. :)
However, in terms of addressing your points: any decent video should have a transcript available, similarly, it's simple to put a table of contents in the intro and notes to show what's being covered, and finally, i'd expect an SOS video to be well produced and to focus on the subject (rather than the presenter - which is a bugbear of mine!)
:)

I agree I am not likely to get into podcasting and yes, an SOS video would I am sure be of the highest standard but that still does not detract from the fact that you need a screen to view it on. This might not be so important in a podding situation where the user might have several devices available but the beginner IS likely to have but one computer.

You suggest I am unlikely to need either instruction manuals or videos? Maybe I have had more experience than the newb but since I always refer such folks TO the documentation I can hardly not follow my own advice? The fact is, if the documentation is badly done (or does not exists!) this reflects badly IMO on the product and company.

Dave.
ef37a
Jedi Poster
Posts: 10518
Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 12:00 am
Location: northampton uk

Re: Starting from scratch article

Postby ef37a » Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:17 pm

Humphrump!
After several hours the mailer demon has just reported that it cannot deliver my email to Rode.

That has further demoted them in my estimation. They do have one of those nosy forms but, stuff 'em.

Dave.
ef37a
Jedi Poster
Posts: 10518
Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 12:00 am
Location: northampton uk

Re: Starting from scratch article

Postby blinddrew » Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:54 pm

ef37a wrote:I agree I am not likely to get into podcasting and yes, an SOS video would I am sure be of the highest standard but that still does not detract from the fact that you need a screen to view it on. This might not be so important in a podding situation where the user might have several devices available but the beginner IS likely to have but one computer.
True, but that applies as much to an online article as it does to a video. And alt+tab is easy enough. You could make an argument either way about having the audio from a video continue whilst you switch between applications.

ef37a wrote:You suggest I am unlikely to need either instruction manuals or videos?
I don't think I did actually, I certainly didn't mean to and apologies if it came across that way.
What I was suggesting is that a lot of people who come here for advice use video as their preferred style of learning; you can see that from the number of 'can you point me to a youtube?' questions we get. This being a completely voluntary situation, if you don't provide material in the format that it's wanted people will simply go elsewhere.

ef37a wrote:Maybe I have had more experience than the newb but since I always refer such folks TO the documentation I can hardly not follow my own advice?
Very good point. I suspect there needs to be a balance of material, some of which will have a long-term reference value (better in print), some of which may serve simply to introduce a concept or approach (possibly better in video).

ef37a wrote:The fact is, if the documentation is badly done (or does not exists!) this reflects badly IMO on the product and company.
I think we might be mixing our objectives here, but yes, good documention is essential in any field if you're going for anything more than a quick dabble as a bit of hobby.
But if it isn't read by the target audience it's not doing its job. A lot of the queries we get are from people who just want to plug A into B and get on with the music; we can tackle C and D if and when they're interested.
User avatar
blinddrew
Jedi Poster
Posts: 7646
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:00 am
Location: York
Ignore the post count, I have no idea what I'm doing...

Re: Starting from scratch article

Postby Wonks » Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:05 pm

If somebody brought out a range of mics, cables and audio interfaces named A, B and C, then it would be very easy. :)
User avatar
Wonks
Jedi Poster
Posts: 8921
Joined: Thu May 29, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Reading, UK
Correcting mistakes on the internet since 1853

Re: Starting from scratch article

Postby blinddrew » Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:29 pm

Now there's a business proposition for you!
User avatar
blinddrew
Jedi Poster
Posts: 7646
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:00 am
Location: York
Ignore the post count, I have no idea what I'm doing...

Re: Starting from scratch article

Postby ef37a » Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:30 pm

"I think we might be mixing our objectives here, but yes, good documention is essential in any field if you're going for anything more than a quick dabble as a bit of hobby.
But if it isn't read by the target audience it's not doing its job. A lot of the queries we get are from people who just want to plug A into B and get on with the music; we can tackle C and D if and when they're interested."

People have NEVER RTFM'ed ! Much of the last ten years of my time as a field service tech was spent trying to teach people how to use VCRs and, as they got more and more complex, TVs. The instruction manual was always in front of me/them* and I tried to always relate the demo to a page and refer them to a page as questions arose.

It must not be "preachy" but surely any basic guide that graces the Hallowed Pages should always follow best practice? That, to my mind means attempting to instill a proper, systematic way of working and following gear makers instructions. If said manufctrs just hold up their hands and say "They don't read the &^%%$ Why should we bother to produce manuals?" We are all lost.

(btw, my email to Rode was a mistake. Somehow "road.com" was sent but it took a H of a long time to come back. Might have been my typo so apologies if so)

* What REALLY used to hiss me off was the guy (always a male!) who produced a scruffy piece of paper and wanted to write down my instructions. "It's all in the book!" I would exclaim. Best students were females, especially nurses. Worst were male teachers.

Dave.
ef37a
Jedi Poster
Posts: 10518
Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 12:00 am
Location: northampton uk

Re: Starting from scratch article

Postby ef37a » Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:45 pm

Wonks wrote:If somebody brought out a range of mics, cables and audio interfaces named A, B and C, then it would be very easy. :)

Hmm? Several years ago I tried to get a company interested in IDC audio components. I even built a few prototypes with punch down Pressac blocks interfacing with jacks, XLRs and RCA sockets. Never got a response.
I noticed a year or so ago that such solderless connectors are now on the market. Not though by the company I approached.

BTW. bit rich saying "I" have wandered OT? I did not start the BS about the colour of various skys!

Dave.
ef37a
Jedi Poster
Posts: 10518
Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 12:00 am
Location: northampton uk

Re: Starting from scratch article

Postby Watchmaker » Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:54 pm

This thread, perhaps more than any other I've read, really shows off the array of personalities populating the SOS forum :lol:

Everything can be taught, and a boundary around what "beginner" is and "what are they trying to do" needs to be drawn. I'd say ignore the latter as there are too many use cases to consider. Also what used to be relevant like biasing tape decks, is now only relevant to certain plugins. So the educator's knowledge and experience is necessarily is greater than the students ability to absorb. AKA "dumb it down a bit professor."

Knowing signal flow is paramount because DAWs were designed to emulate/facilitate/integrate the prior generation of solutions, some basic understanding of connectivity in the electrical sense (routing) is required for success. But HOW to inform the student of this when it's often the case that the end product is borne of desire rather than insight? I hear things in my head all the time that I know are useless from an artistic perspective. Recording is the translation of idea into content and requires both art and science ( I agree there is no meaningful distinction). I'd also say knowing the basics of transduction, AD/DA conversion, and some discourse on formats (hardware and software) helps today's newcomer gain enough context to begin making decisions.

fwiw, 45% of people loathe video and 87% of statistics are made up on the spot.
User avatar
Watchmaker
Frequent Poster
Posts: 586
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:00 am
Location: Upstate NY, USA
Take my advice, I'm not using it.

Re: Starting from scratch article

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:31 pm

blinddrew wrote:...i'd expect an SOS video to be well produced and to focus on the subject (rather than the presenter - which is a bugbear of mine!) :)

Mine too!

We've done some 'educational' videos in the past, and some have been well received, but it's actually an extremely difficult thing to do well. Monty's Xiph.org digital audio videos are amongst the best I've seen, but there's a very substantial investment (in time, if not cash) in bespoke demonstration equipment to make that work as well as it does.

So while perfectly doable, it's not trivial and takes a lot of planning and prep. And that's the problem for us. Squeezing that kind of production effort in around and on top of creating the monthly mags is a challenge.

Having said that, we have been talking around this topic for a fair old while now, and almost made a start last year but that was scuppered when our previous Media Editor jumped ship! But we have the content and the ideas... it's just finding a way to realise them.

I am encouraged, though, that so many think it's a good direction to move in. Watch this space! (Just not too keenly! ;-)

H
User avatar
Hugh Robjohns
Moderator
Posts: 24082
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Re: Starting from scratch article

Postby blinddrew » Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:25 pm

I work in communications these days, and i spend a lot of time persuading people that a video is not the solution to their problem. They're tricky to make, awkward to view, difficult to navigate... etc.
But sometimes they are the right tool for the job. And if, as Dave rightly points out, no-one RTFMs, then sometimes you have to try something else.
Though perhaps the better solution there might be for SOS to partner with one of the better existing video channels? Rather than trying to squeeze something that's not their bread and butter into a hectic schedule?
User avatar
blinddrew
Jedi Poster
Posts: 7646
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:00 am
Location: York
Ignore the post count, I have no idea what I'm doing...

Re: Starting from scratch article

Postby ef37a » Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:54 pm

blinddrew wrote:I work in communications these days, and i spend a lot of time persuading people that a video is not the solution to their problem. They're tricky to make, awkward to view, difficult to navigate... etc.
But sometimes they are the right tool for the job. And if, as Dave rightly points out, no-one RTFMs, then sometimes you have to try something else.
Though perhaps the better solution there might be for SOS to partner with one of the better existing video channels? Rather than trying to squeeze something that's not their bread and butter into a hectic schedule?

Err? Nice to get a mention Drew but I feel I have been quoted a bit out of my meaning? My point was, no one ever did RTFM but the fact is, we must still try to get them to! Sometimes, in desperation, I would say to a customer "I was not BORN knowing this you know! The only way I found out was from the book!" This fact can be an irritant to helpers who have put the work in and genuinely WANT to help the noob but do reasonably expect SOME effort on their part?

I have made the following point before but if there is a a video, or series thereof, my very limited experience tells me there must be a lot of time put in scripting it? Therefore surely said script can be knocked into shape and made available for download as well?

Yes, farm out the video work but that might be too costly?

Dave.
ef37a
Jedi Poster
Posts: 10518
Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 12:00 am
Location: northampton uk

Re: Starting from scratch article

Postby blinddrew » Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:11 pm

Sorry Dave, didn't mean to take you out of context, i thought we'd found a piece of common ground.
If you always do what you've always done, then you'll always get what you've always got.
We know people don't RTFM, we can keep telling them they should, but we shouldn't be surprised if they go elsewhere and find a method that works for them.

But every video absolutely should have a written equivalent. When i talk about this stuff at work, one of the points i emphasise is that a video will only ever be part of a solution. There are too many people for whom it doesn't work. So each script should be built on a written chapter.

Outsourcing the video work would definitely be too costly, hence i suggested a partnership approach.

Aaaanyway, clearly Matt and Hugh have a long term plan for this so i shall get back in my box and leave it in their capable hands.
User avatar
blinddrew
Jedi Poster
Posts: 7646
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:00 am
Location: York
Ignore the post count, I have no idea what I'm doing...

Re: Starting from scratch article

Postby Mike Stranks » Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:25 pm

ef37a wrote:
BTW. bit rich saying "I" have wandered OT? I did not start the BS about the colour of various skys!

Dave.

I'm still here Dave.

It's a fact of life of ANY forum that people frequently wander off the subject and dive deep or ride their own hobby-horses. Hence my 'blue sky' post, using irony to illustrate the point that a forum is often not the place to ask a simple question when you have zero background knowledge.

I tried to be courteous to you in expressing my view that your approach to people who know absolutely nothing is misguided. Some courtesy in return - rather than referring to my post as BS - would have been appreciated.
Mike Stranks
Jedi Poster
Posts: 6726
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 1:00 am

PreviousNext

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users