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Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby ConcertinaChap » Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:05 pm

OneWorld wrote:t isn't so much the PC I am unhappy with but Win10. I hardly had any problems at all with XP (except the 4gig ram restriction) and that was resolved with Win7/64 - a beautiful OS if ever there were one, in all the years I was using it I don't remember having a single problem with it.

Ahhhh, yes. I still use W7 a bit in virtual machines. It's a great shame Microsoft felt the need to go beyond W7. Mind you, I likewise think it a shame that Apple went beyond Snow Leopard, which also did all that I wanted an OS to do and did it elegantly.

Can't we have a moratorium on new OS versions and just have bug and security fixes on the ones we've got? It would make life so much easier.

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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:05 pm

My main music computer is a Scan-built Win7/64 machine and it has always been and remains entirely problem-free (and I have no plans to 'upgrade' it anytime soon).

Personal experience of Win 10 to date is rather more limited (wife and daughter's laptops and my own MS Surface) but none have given any problems so far. I regularly use the Surface with a variety of different audio interfaces and DAW software -- often in lengthy recording sessions -- and I've not had any problems at all with it -- not even after any of the win10 updates. The only minor frustration I've had has been having to reduce the screen resolution occasionally to make some GUIs properly readable (SADiE's LRX being one!).

All of these machines have been running Win 10 from the outset though, not upgrades from 7, and that seems to be a significant factor in many Win 10 complaints I've heard. I agree about the included bloatware, but it seems fairly easy to ignore... Certainly hasn't got in the way with anything I want to do with the machine.

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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby Jadoube » Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:16 pm

The modern OS has become as much a portal to an ecosystem of products and services (internet) as much as anything else. This is often contrary to building a stable platform to host near real-time software solutions... i.e. DAWs etc. I couldn't help but notice that a good part of the tangential discussion in this thread was around how to "freeze" BOTH Windows and macOS. Both operating systems suffer from the same issue; upgrades that destabilize a DAW. The question is really your best-preferred strategy for freezing your software music tools in time.

I wish there was an Open Source OS platform (probably a Linux) that could attract all the music developers similar to the way Steinberg's VSTs become a relatively stable defacto standard. Now that would be a great OS for music.... but who would be motivated to build it? No idea! An OS is a much more challenging project than a plugin framework. And all those different bits of hardware,,, :headbang:
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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:30 pm

At the begingings of the first DAWs, back in the early 90s, there was an operating system called BeOS, developed specifically for audio/video media platforms, and it had quite a lot going for it... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BeOS

It seems few have heard of it, though, and while it still underpins some high-end audio products from Tascam, Roland, (and the earlier RADAR audio recorders), it seems to have fizzled out... I guess the weight of the corporate monsters from MS and Apple have drowned it...
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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby desmond » Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:41 pm

Apple were very interested in buying BeOS as the next Mac operating system, but Jean-Louis Gassée basically thought they had no other viable choice and expected them to buy it so demanded too high a price...

They went with NextStep in the end, which became OSX. They paid more for it than JLG wanted for BeOS, but of course, that came with Steve Jobs and, well, he proved to be worth the money... ;)

JLG is an interesting figure in Apple history...
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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby garrettendi » Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:50 pm

There's a new OS being developed with BeOS compatibility built into the x86 version. It's called Haiku and is pretty much the successor to the much-unkown BeOS

https://www.haiku-os.org/

The first Beta is being released next month. I tried the first Alpha way back in around 2011 and it was very basic, but since then seems to be a bit more fully featured. There isn't much software built in, but with the BeOS compatibility, you could use the old audio software!

(I don't work on the project btw ;) )
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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby Jadoube » Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:55 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:At the begingings of the first DAWs, back in the early 90s, there was an operating system called BeOS, developed specifically for audio/video media platforms, and it had quite a lot going for it... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BeOS

It seems few have heard of it, though, and while it still underpins some high-end audio products from Tascam, Roland, (and the earlier RADAR audio recorders), it seems to have fizzled out... I guess the weight of the corporate monsters from MS and Apple have drowned it...

I was a registered developer for BeOS! :thumbup:
They tried to pedal it to Jobs but he brought NeXT over instead. (ahh as mentioned above!)
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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby Forum Admin » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:03 pm

I always thought NeXT was such a clever name for Jobs' project/company, as he was indeed trying (in his mind at least) to create the new, ubiquitous XT.
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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby Agharta » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:51 pm

A major issue for me with Apple is the very limited range of hardware they sell.
My last 3 Windows computers have no closely comparable Apple equivalent which makes Apple a non starter.

Then there's the fact that the Dell laptops I buy come with a next business day on-site warranty.
When my dad's ipad was playing up the next time slot at an Apple store was in 5 to 7 days and a 100 miles away.

With Windows I find if you keep an eye on which versions to avoid or delay using things are straightforward, although W10 has upped the ante a bit.

So for me Apple makes no sense even if their prices were halved.
But I fully understand why some people use them.
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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby ManFromGlass » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:05 pm

Next business day on-site warranty? :idea: :mrgreen: :idea:

Have we entered another dimension? Holy crap! Says the Mac-based guy.
Have you ever needed it? Was it true to the description?
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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby James Perrett » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:20 pm

ManFromGlass wrote:Next business day on-site warranty? :idea: :mrgreen: :idea:

Have we entered another dimension? Holy crap! Says the Mac-based guy.
Have you ever needed it? Was it true to the description?

In my previous job we had quite a few Dell Precision laptops with a similar 3 year warranty. I only ever remember it being needed once and it certainly lived up to its promise. This sort of warranty is pretty common in the IT world and I'd be very surprised if it wasn't available on Apple machines (although, knowing Apple, at a cost whereas it comes as standard on Dell's higher end machines).
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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby Ariosto » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:22 pm

In fact, yes. My wife had a Dell computer and there was a problem. They came out twice and replaced the motherboard. We then found it was a third party modem that caused the problem! So that was thrown out and everything was fine.

And 10+ years later the monitor is still going strong, although the computer has been replaced with a Mac Mini!
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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby Agharta » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:27 pm

ManFromGlass wrote:Next business day on-site warranty? :idea: :mrgreen: :idea:

Have we entered another dimension? Holy crap! Says the Mac-based guy.
Have you ever needed it? Was it true to the description?
I used to be a Dell reseller so when you handle thousands of systems you have to use support more than a typical consumer.
As long as you phoned before 4pm or so they would be with you the next business day except on the very rare occasions when a part was out of stock.
They'd often arrive with a range of parts just in case the fault wasn't the obvious one.
They phone prior to coming so you have advance notice so don't have to wait in all day.

For Servers and critical gear you can get a 4 hour response 24/7 if your pockets are deep enough.
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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby Agharta » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:34 pm

James Perrett wrote:In my previous job we had quite a few Dell Precision laptops with a similar 3 year warranty. I only ever remember it being needed once and it certainly lived up to its promise. This sort of warranty is pretty common in the IT world and I'd be very surprised if it wasn't available on Apple machines (although, knowing Apple, at a cost whereas it comes as standard on Dell's higher end machines).
It also comes as standard on many official Dell refurbished business systems costing from £600 or so. That's useful if you upgrade your system every 2 years as selling a system with a one year manufacturer on site warranty is very good for resale values.
Often you can upgrade the warranty from 3 to 5 years for a reasonable price also.
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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby Dave B » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:57 pm

Ariosto wrote:And 10+ years later the monitor is still going strong

Iirc, Apple and Dell both use the same screens for their monitors. A fair few Mac mini owners have Dell monitors .. :D
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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby Wonks » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:32 pm

I have 19", 21" and 25" monitors. They're all Adele.
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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby zenguitar » Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:33 am

Wonks wrote:I have 19", 21" and 25" monitors. They're all Adele.
:D
I see what ya did there Wonks, far too clever by half :clap:

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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby DC-Choppah » Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:45 pm

OneWorld wrote:
Imagine being sat at the computer and moving the mouse rapidly from left to right, every 2 or 3 seconds the mouse 'freezes' momentarily. Imagine the mouse cursor being in the centre of the screen and you want to move to the menu along the top of the screen, the mouse 'stalls' for a moment on the journey from the centre of the screen to the menu bar. OK it's not big deal, but when in Cubase and doing some intense editing, a lot of mousing about, it really is an inconvenience.

Now in sync with the mouse error, the progress line in Cubase stops too. Imagine playing a tune and the scroll bar is moving from left to right as the tune plays. The scroll bar stops every few seconds, only for a moment, then it starts moving again and catches up with itself, but again after a few seconds, stalls for a moment.

What makes this even stranger is that I can start Cubase and the fault does not show up until about after an hour or so of use. I am completely baffled by this behaviour. I have downloaded new/older drivers, I have even tried swapping out my Fireface 800 for my Liquid 56 interface, as I knew I definitely never had the problem before I got the FF800, but, no difference. And because it is relatively random, it's hard to track down when the problem first surfaced. I have tried every setting I can think of but no solution.


My DAW (ProTools) acted that way recently too. Just like you, if I left it on for some time, it would become laggy like this. Turned out the problem was the CMOS battery on the mobo had run out and the system clock was wrong. When your system clock is off and/or the CMOS battery is out you get weird Windows problems on anything time critical like a DAW or the mouse. Please replace your mobo CMOS battery, make sure your bios is updated and the system time is set properly. Note this is not a 'Windows' issue if it is the case since WIndows just runs on top of your system and trusts the system clock. If your system clock is unreliable, Windows will be unreliable too.
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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:44 pm

Interesting thought -- thanks DC. One to bear in mind...
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Re: Mac vs PC - sorry but I have to ask

Postby OneWorld » Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:28 pm

DC-Choppah wrote:
OneWorld wrote:
Imagine being sat at the computer and moving the mouse rapidly from left to right, every 2 or 3 seconds the mouse 'freezes' momentarily. Imagine the mouse cursor being in the centre of the screen and you want to move to the menu along the top of the screen, the mouse 'stalls' for a moment on the journey from the centre of the screen to the menu bar. OK it's not big deal, but when in Cubase and doing some intense editing, a lot of mousing about, it really is an inconvenience.

Now in sync with the mouse error, the progress line in Cubase stops too. Imagine playing a tune and the scroll bar is moving from left to right as the tune plays. The scroll bar stops every few seconds, only for a moment, then it starts moving again and catches up with itself, but again after a few seconds, stalls for a moment.

What makes this even stranger is that I can start Cubase and the fault does not show up until about after an hour or so of use. I am completely baffled by this behaviour. I have downloaded new/older drivers, I have even tried swapping out my Fireface 800 for my Liquid 56 interface, as I knew I definitely never had the problem before I got the FF800, but, no difference. And because it is relatively random, it's hard to track down when the problem first surfaced. I have tried every setting I can think of but no solution.

The fix was far far simpler, but one that foxed me for weeks


My DAW (ProTools) acted that way recently too. Just like you, if I left it on for some time, it would become laggy like this. Turned out the problem was the CMOS battery on the mobo had run out and the system clock was wrong. When your system clock is off and/or the CMOS battery is out you get weird Windows problems on anything time critical like a DAW or the mouse. Please replace your mobo CMOS battery, make sure your bios is updated and the system time is set properly. Note this is not a 'Windows' issue if it is the case since WIndows just runs on top of your system and trusts the system clock. If your system clock is unreliable, Windows will be unreliable too.


The fix was far far simpler, and had it been the MOBO battery, the fault would have been consistent not internetmittent, but it was a fix so simple I could slap myself in the face with a wet fish, but was so hard to isolate, but here goes....

I have 2 PCS (PC A - Office PC) and (PC B - for music) I have 2 4K monitors Mon 1, Mon2

PC A --> Mon 1

PC B --> Mon 2, + Mon 1 (Music PC can be displayed over 2 monitors)

I don't always have PC B displaying to Mon 1 + Mon2, only when I am doing some in depth editing

If I am not using PC A, but it is switched on, Mon 1 will go to sleep, and depending on use, it can go to sleep intermittently

At the same time PC B will be turned on, but not actually displaying to Mon1 + Mon2, as PC A is displaying to it, but if I choose to have PC B displaying to both monitors then I can select the input I want to display on both.

When the problem (the stalling scroll bar + jittery mouse) first arose, or more precisely, when I first noticed it as a re-occurring problem but one that occurred intermittently, WIn10 had updated, I had bought a new mouse + keyboard, I had bought a new MIDI controller and had updated some software.

Because of my layout, I don't see both monitors at the same time, they are at 90 degrees to each other, I like to keep the second monitor as a mixing monitor, I don't need to see Cubase scroll going along, I treat the monitor as a mixing desk, in conjunction with hardware MIDI controller - I have a virtual console. And if I want to use email, MS Office etc, I use PC A anyway. Point is, when it goes to sleep, I might be looking the other way and not notice the instant it went to sleep.

Seeing as Win10 had updated, I had bought new equipment, new keyboard + mouse, new software and noticed the 'fault' I suspected one of these changes was the culprit, the usual garden path logic. It turned out to be purely coincidental that I noticed the fault. And tried the logical route - go back t the old keyboard + mouse, swapped out the new MIDI controller etc, rolled back my WIndows image etc etc etc

For a day, everything went well, then I would go and get a cuppa, came back, set play going on Cubase and the problem was back grrrrrr I even changed my tea from Yorkshire to Typhoo.

Then the other day I got up and thought I am going to nail this once and for all. I sort of stress tested each hardware keyboard, each MIDI controller etc etc and after about 7 hours all was still working well!!!!! Yipeee

I went to make a cuppa, set Cubase going and DAMN!!!! the problem was back again. I sat back, and supped my tea and asked myself, what has changed in the time it takes to make a cup of tea - just one thing, I had turned off PC A had been turned off and so no signal coming in and as such gone to sleep, even though PC 2 was sending a signal to it, though coming into Mon1 (HDMI 1 fed from PC B)

So I reckoned that must be it. So I got the monitor remote, switched to HDMI 2 (fed from PC B (music PC monitor 2)) and then of course the music 2 displays were displaying and lo and behold, scroll bar operated as it should and so does the mouse - it was as simple as that.

I guess with the music PC using 2 monitors, the display card syncs them together? so when one monitor went off sync was lost, but why that should affect the mouse (and the qwerty keyboard) goodness knows, but I don't really care anyway, it works and that'll do me,

And I guess I owe Win10 an apology, it just happened to come to the party when the trouble started
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