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Re: NT-SF1

Postby ConcertinaChap » Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:14 am

Here's a review of the Zylia system as it was a couple of years ago.

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/zylia-zm-1

I suspect the hardware's the same but the software has had a lot of development since then. Paul doesn't mention the overall quality of the sound, from which I guess we can assume it's decent as I'm sure he would mention it if it was poor.

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Re: NT-SF1

Postby blinddrew » Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:15 am

I thought i remembered reading about this: https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/zylia-zm-1

[Edit - Ha! Great minds and all that...]
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Re: NT-SF1

Postby Wonks » Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:18 am

blinddrew wrote:Well if you will insist on tying yourself to these proprietary platforms... ;)

As opposed to Folderol who ties himself to non-proprietary platforms? :D
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Re: NT-SF1

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:22 am

ConcertinaChap wrote:Unless I misread (always possible) it doesn't have onboard recording.

Sorry -- my bad. You're right and I was thinking of something else. It provides a USB output for recording HOA in a laptop etc, but includes the tracking/processing software platform.

PS Just noticed the DAW is required to be Reaper or Ardor. No idea why this should be and it seems a remarkably arbitrary restriction but if I can't use it with Logic then the whole concept is dead in the water and floating downstream towards the weir.

It's because of Logic's current restriction on the number of tracks which can be processed together for the higher-order ambisonic source and output tracks. Logic will probably catch up with the tech requirements eventually...

H
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Re: NT-SF1

Postby ConcertinaChap » Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:42 am

OK, well Paul's review suggests the recording can be exported as a set of wav files and if that's still the case that would still make for a satisfactory (if time consuming) way of moving the data to the DAW, one that would also apply to Cubase, Pro Tools and the rest since they aren't on the list either.

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Re: NT-SF1

Postby Mike Stranks » Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:55 am

I'd be reluctant to get one of those... visiting grandkids might think it was a football....
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Re: NT-SF1

Postby ConcertinaChap » Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:00 pm

That's a definite score for me then, no grand kids :)

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Re: NT-SF1

Postby ManFromGlass » Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:46 pm

....ambisonic sound in all its glory of mic sailing through the air ....... :smirk:
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Re: NT-SF1

Postby Wonks » Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:26 pm

[1966]They think the sound's all over... well it is now![/1966]
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Re: NT-SF1

Postby ConcertinaChap » Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:56 pm

For Drew especially but anyone else who's interested in the Zylia after some digging I eventually found the pages with the really interesting info here.

Zylia comes really close to what I want, but ultimately fails largely because of the channels-per-track restriction Hugh noted. There's more to it than that, however. There's two versions of the app, the basic and the pro. The basic app is standalone and is responsible for making the actual recording and afterwards can export individual tracks for each "virtual microphone" that can be loaded into a DAW like Logic. Unfortunately and rather bizarrely you have to set up the virtual mics before you start recording. This completely cuts away the whole point of ambisonic recording for me which is the post hoc ability to change your virtual mic placement. Consider the following usage, a ring of people singing or playing instruments (my particular case a group of shanty singers) with the ambisonic mic in the middle. I would want to make the recording and then depending on who is actually leading the shanty at that moment set up my virtual mics accordingly. You can't do that with the Zylia basic, you'd have to rejig the recording setup each time before you start recording.

The Zylia basic app sort of works for their suggested usage, people rehearsing in a fixed and predetermined arrangement but for any real world usage - nah. I think this restriction is only present to justify the very much more expensive Zylia pro app which can do post hoc selection of virtual mics and work as a plugin within your DAW, but only if your DAW can handle single tracks with a minimum of 19 channels. As Hugh points out Logic can't do this. I don't know about other DAWs but as I noted above they specify either Reader or Ardor only in their minimum requirements.

So there we are. Shame really.

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Re: NT-SF1

Postby blinddrew » Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:25 pm

Thank you very much sir, will have a shufti. :)
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Re: NT-SF1

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:35 pm

ConcertinaChap wrote:...the very much more expensive Zylia pro app which can do post hoc selection of virtual mics and work as a plugin within your DAW, but only if your DAW can handle single tracks with a minimum of 19 channels. As Hugh points out Logic can't do this. I don't know about other DAWs but as I noted above they specify either Reader or Ardor only in their minimum requirements.

I believe Nuendo can handle large channel-count single tracks, and I'm sure there are others, but Reaper is a very popular choice because its developers have been so responsive to the needs of HOA and have added and developed the required functionality very promptly. Logic is not the only mainstream DAW to fail to support HOA; ProTools can't do it either...

(Well, the premium hardware version can't because of the physical limitations of its internal DSP structures. The native version could be updated to support high channel-count single tracks, but Avid don't want to do that because the cheap native version would then outperform the expensive hardware flagship version... ;-) )
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Re: NT-SF1

Postby Sam Inglis » Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:20 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:(Well, the premium hardware version can't because of the physical limitations of its internal DSP structures. The native version could be updated to support high channel-count single tracks, but Avid don't want to do that because the cheap native version would then outperform the expensive hardware flagship version... ;-) )

You mean in the same way that Cubase could be updated to support high channel-count tracks but Steinberg don't want to do that because then no-one would pay the extra for Nuendo? Or the way that Samplitude could inherit all the features of Sequoia but then there wouldn't be any point in Sequoia's existence?...
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Re: NT-SF1

Postby Ramirez » Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:08 pm

Sam Inglis wrote:
Hugh Robjohns wrote:(Well, the premium hardware version can't because of the physical limitations of its internal DSP structures. The native version could be updated to support high channel-count single tracks, but Avid don't want to do that because the cheap native version would then outperform the expensive hardware flagship version... ;-) )

You mean in the same way that Cubase could be updated to support high channel-count tracks but Steinberg don't want to do that because then no-one would pay the extra for Nuendo? Or the way that Samplitude could inherit all the features of Sequoia but then there wouldn't be any point in Sequoia's existence?...

Not quite, because the premium version of PT can’t do it!
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Re: NT-SF1

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:21 pm

Ramirez wrote:Not quite, because the premium version of PT can’t do it!

Precisiment! ;-)
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Re: NT-SF1

Postby Sam Inglis » Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:55 pm

It can do third-order Ambisonics, is that not enough?
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Re: NT-SF1

Postby ConcertinaChap » Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:02 pm

I've documented on the Mac forum my problems with importing polywav files into Logic, but now I've an NT-SF1 I have to admit with being delighted and excited with the thing. Early days yet but it really does work as advertised.

The plugin Soundfield by Rode comes without any documentation and none to be had on the web either, except for one site that was actually trying to persuade you that your machine has a virus. Why they should have picked the promise of an ambisonic plugin manual as a lure is, frankly, beyond me (I wasn't fooled; everybody knows Macs Don't Get Viruses ;-) ). So you have to spend a bit of time playing with it, clicking and dragging everything in sight.

Here, if you're interested, are some of the mic emulations I've been able to work out so far:

Cardioid

Image

Omni

Image

Figure of 8

Image

X-Y

Image

Blumlein

Image

Of course you can combine these readily using multiple channels and plugins with the same data file, so mid-side would be pretty easy. With my normal example of the circle of shanty singers standing round the mic I'm thinking I'd use the Blumlein to give the basic stereo image of all the singers and and focus in on whoever's leading the shanty at the time using the cardioid.

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Re: NT-SF1

Postby ConcertinaChap » Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:52 pm

Or perhaps just lots and lots of cardioids!

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Re: NT-SF1

Postby ManFromGlass » Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:32 pm

Ok vague memory here about why Logic won’t work with Ambisonic files. (Doing this from memory, I did not make notes about it during the process). I had to use Reaper for the final processing of the final file because Logic had some form of limitations on the number of Master outs, where Reaper has a large number of master outs. I was able to create a 360 video with panning sound due to Reaper. There were a number of YouTube’s that were very helpful.
CC - I only mention this in case it helps point you in a useful direction as I don’t think you are going for the 360 panning experience.
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Re: NT-SF1

Postby ConcertinaChap » Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:48 pm

I've just put up a post in the Mac forum about how I cracked the problem of loading third party ambisonic files into Logic by using Logic to write the polywav file itself :)

I think your memory is correct and directly relates to why you can't use the Zylia higher order ambisonic mic with Logic.

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