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Need the smallest subs

Postby gsc1ugs » Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:26 am

Hi
Ive had a few posts and cant escape the fact i need to get subs to complete my setup. Can i adk what are the smallest i could use with dxr15 WHICH i must say are ticking me off about due to the size im doin a madness tribute solo and not much younger than suggs so i would like the most efficient to transport. I keep looking at the amazing id24 setup and if i could afford it i would get but i still think there are limitations with the crowd it could support. My thanks for ongoing torture i have.
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Re: Need the smallest subs

Postby Sam Spoons » Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:10 am

Realistically 15" subs are the smallest that will help but 18" would be better. The will not increase bass by much, but will allow a little more headroom to the tops.

But, in another thread you say :- "because the dxr15's are so boomy plenty punch, i was just after adding clarity but what your saying it they are two different animals and i should get subs for the dxr15's and set the dxr15 to FOH on the back?"

Subs are not going to help as you already have too much/uncontrolled bass (and they certainly are not going to add clarity). I think you need to learn to use what you have before throwing more money at the problem. The DXR15s are very capable speakers and, fed with a well balanced signal, will sound great.
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Re: Need the smallest subs

Postby gsc1ugs » Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:16 am

ok, thanks sam, let me simplify, is there a set of tops that would equal dxr15's that are smaller? lighter? have a little wizard inside doing magical things! :lol: :lol:
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Re: Need the smallest subs

Postby Sam Spoons » Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:42 pm

What is your problem with the DXR15s? DXR10s or DXR12s would be nicer for vocals and are a little lighter and smaller. There are other speakers that will sound better than the DXRs but at a cost, you will have too pay a lot more for relatively small gains. But, the DXRs are good speakers and if you can't get your tracks to sound good with them the problem is likely with the mixer or the tracks not the DXRs.
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Re: Need the smallest subs

Postby gsc1ugs » Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:02 pm

Just how big they are, didnt realise till i picked up, got them good price but i have to think long term, someone said ps8 system small bins i believe but we know thats a couple of grand
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Re: Need the smallest subs

Postby Sam Spoons » Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:40 pm

So you intend to sell the DXR15s and buy a different rig with small(ish) subs?
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Re: Need the smallest subs

Postby Wonks » Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:05 am

You need to think short and long term. If you don't get a decent suitable system to start with then there won't be a long term to think of. If you get to the stage where you can afford a good Nexo system, you'll generally be playing venues where the Nexo system will be too small and you'll either need to hire a PA, or the venue will have its own. To start with, the acoustics in the venues you are likely to play aren't going to be good enough to let people hear the small difference between the Nexo and the Yamaha system. The only time I've heard a Nexo system it had two small tops but four very large subs, and you aren't going to transport, set that type of rig up yourself, perform and take it down again in an evening. You'll need at least one other person. And I didn't think that it sounded better than my Yamaha system (at least if mine had had another sub).

Set realistic goals you can achieve.
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Re: Need the smallest subs

Postby gsc1ugs » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:14 am

Well the plan is (hope it makes sense) yamaha mg82x desk, use my dxr15 and a pair of ls400 subs using the correct controller just for the subs? What you think, if venues get bigger then a rethink, at moment this is right for my budget, this all comes in at £1700
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Re: Need the smallest subs

Postby Wonks » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:48 am

As long as you set the crossover frequencies the same, then that should work - but you'll need to carry round a rack with the controller and sub power amp in.

What are you planning to do for monitoring? You only really need a single monitor, though you could think about in-ear monitoring to reduce the risk of feedback.

The mixer is less than ideal because there is no dedicated aux output for monitors. The monitor output is the FOH mix (and the level is changed when the FOH level is changed sespite it having its own volume knob) . I had a similar model from the previous range without the compressor and used it just for vocal only rehearsals where there were no monitors. Nice sound quality, but not designed for a FOH + monitor set-up.

And there is no way to use an external effects unit except as an insert effect. Reverb and delays would be easier to set up and adjust as send effects as different venues will need different amounts of reverb. If you use a programable fx unit, then the wet/dry balance will normally be programmed in to each preset.

So you might want to think about a mixer with a few more features. A sweepable mid EQ is always useful.
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Re: Need the smallest subs

Postby Sam Spoons » Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:45 pm

The LS400 is a 12" sub? I don't believe it/they will do anything useful (and it definitely won't if you don't have the controller). The LS400 is designed to complement a pair of Nexo PS8, the PS8 is a radically different speaker to the DXR15 so you have a huge mismatch. You say the bass from your rig is boomy? Adding subs will only make that worse, you need to sort out your mixer settings or your tracks first. The DXR15s are perfectly capable of doing the job. If you insist on buying a sub or two then the best choice by far would be the Yamaha DXS18.

PS8/LS12 system costs £8200 and is not as loud as the DXR15s, probably not going to help things.......
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Re: Need the smallest subs

Postby gsc1ugs » Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:51 pm

A £1000 each and 50kg.... i'd pull me back, have i got the wrong tops if thats what i need? when i say boomy, thats probably my mixer settings, i was trying out a small yamaha desk but no eq control so going for a mg82x with eq on, also have a powerstation 350 even the two yamaha's dont work. I thought bass is bass??? :headbang:
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Re: Need the smallest subs

Postby Sam Spoons » Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:16 pm

gsc1ugs wrote:A £1000 each and 50kg.... i'd pull me back, have i got the wrong tops if thats what i need? when i say boomy, thats probably my mixer settings, i was trying out a small yamaha desk but no eq control so going for a mg82x with eq on, also have a powerstation 350 even the two yamaha's dont work. I thought bass is bass??? :headbang:

It's not quite that simple. Can you post a link to one of your tracks? It might just help somebody to have a listen to see if your 'boominess' issues are at source?
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Re: Need the smallest subs

Postby gsc1ugs » Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:26 pm

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Re: Need the smallest subs

Postby Sam Spoons » Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:23 pm

A quick listen on my AirPods doesn't throw up any problems but the have very little bass so I'll have to give it another listen in the studio tomorrow when I'm back at home. Excellent performance BTW :thumbup:
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Re: Need the smallest subs

Postby Wonks » Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:41 pm

Sam has a downer on 12" subs. I don't. :round1: Nexo simply don't make bad kit and my 12" Yamaha sub (now Dave B's) was absolutely fine with the DXR10s.

You too will be fine provided you use the controller and a suitable power amp (if it's not one of the combined units). But you must make sure that both the DXR15 and the sub have the same low pass filter high pass filter and low pass filter frequencies. It looks like they are all adjustable on the NEXO controller, so make sure they are set to the same value as set on the DXR15s (either 120Hz or 100Hz - you'll need to see what works best for you).

15" FOH speakers are useful if you got a band and haven't got subs but have say keyboards, so you want a good low end to the speakers. You can put kick and bass through them if necessary to add a bit of extra low end. You may not have them very loud in a pub when there's no need to mic the drums or bass or guitars, but there's still that extra bit of low-end compared to 10" or 12" for keyboards. But you'll never get the low-end thump out of them that you'll get with a sub which that helps with the whole audience experience in a decent sized venue.

But you have spent more than you needed to on the DXR15s when with subs, the DXR10s or even DXR12s would be smaller and lighter and do the just same job as the DXR15s as they'd all use the same low pass frequency setting, so all would be handling the same amount of mid and high frequencies down to 100Hz or 120Hz.

With the subs you can at least now easily determine the volume of the low end

We did try and tell you not to pick the 15"s and use 10"s or 12"s instead, especially with subs. We know you'll have to carry them to and from gigs!

Where were you trying out the tops? At home or in a decent sized rehearsal space? Any small space or any large empty space can sound boomy with a lot of volume. A decent sized space full of punters should sort that out. Also, you need to understand what the sound is like in front of the speakers, where the audience will be. Standing behind them you get a lot of bass radiating from the rear of the speaker (it's the way bass projection works), so they will sound more boomy to you than when out front.

It's worth trying setting the high pass filter switch to first 100Hz and then 120Hz to see how much low end and boom you loose. That's what will be filled in by the subs at a volume you decide.

Your problem with a desk is that from what I understand, you only really need a single mic input (although if that's a radio mic then you'll need a line input) and a stereo line input for the backing tracks. So that says 'small 'desk', but really you need the facilities of a bigger desk.

You'll probably want some built in FX to provide a basic reverb for your voice.

You really need one pre-fader aux. channel for a monitor.

If you move to an external FX unit, then you'll need a separate post-fader aux. channel for that, and it's normally best to have that coming back on another stereo channel as this gives you the ability to EQ the effects, which using a stereo effect return doesn't.

You'll certainly want EQ, but this is where it gets tricky. You are seemingly doing this professionally (or at least semi-professionally) so you need to view it in a professional light. Not all EQs are the same. Fixed EQs all have different centre or shelf frequencies. But far more useful are swept EQ controls. One swept mid EQ is good. Two swept mid EQs are better. An sweepable bass EQ control is also good.

But to get all that on one channel means buying a physically large analogue mixer, or else a much smaller digital one. I'm not an expert here, but you should be able to get a much more comprehensive EQ per channel, plus built in programmable effects (so you don't need external effects), graphic EQs to balance the FOH sound (and knock back any bass frequencies that may still cause problems).

QSC Touchmix 8 say? I know it's very expensive new for an 8 channel mixer, though used is now an option as they've been out a while, but it really is a good little digital mixer. You can also use it to record your performances for reference and self-improvement. Sam, thoughts on other cheaper but equally useful digital options?
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Re: Need the smallest subs

Postby gsc1ugs » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:28 am

Thanks for the info, would the powerstation 350 power the subs? Im not getting 18’s if i did the bigger venue rheyre prob in house, they wouldn’t expect me fill a room like that
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Re: Need the smallest subs

Postby gsc1ugs » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:53 am

Im obviously mis informed but i thought subs where just to push air :angel:
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Re: Need the smallest subs

Postby Wonks » Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:19 am

gsc1ugs wrote:Thanks for the info, would the powerstation 350 power the subs? Im not getting 18’s if i did the bigger venue rheyre prob in house, they wouldn’t expect me fill a room like that

No. They would make some sound but would be very underpowered compared to the tops. You'd be better off with a lightweight rack amp of the right power.

Cheap subs generally are there to make a 'thud' for kick and bass and don't have a lot of clarity to the bass notes. But well-made subs simply and smoothly extend the range of the tops downwards, just like you are listening to a good large hi-fi speaker.
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Re: Need the smallest subs

Postby Sam Spoons » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:26 am

Wonks wrote:Sam has a downer on 12" subs. I don't. :round1: Nexo simply don't make bad kit and my 12" Yamaha sub (now Dave B's) was absolutely fine with the DXR10s.

Not on 12" subs per se, just teaming them with a 15"H top cab (though my EV 12" sub, now sold, was very 'one note')

You too will be fine provided you use the controller and a suitable power amp (if it's not one of the combined units). But you must make sure that both the DXR15 and the sub have the same low pass filter high pass filter and low pass filter frequencies. It looks like they are all adjustable on the NEXO controller, so make sure they are set to the same value as set on the DXR15s (either 120Hz or 100Hz - you'll need to see what works best for you).

We did try and tell you not to pick the 15"s and use 10"s or 12"s instead, especially with subs. We know you'll have to carry them to and from gigs!

:thumbup:

QSC Touchmix 8 say? I know it's very expensive new for an 8 channel mixer, though used is now an option as they've been out a while, but it really is a good little digital mixer. You can also use it to record your performances for reference and self-improvement. Sam, thoughts on other cheaper but equally useful digital options?

Lots of good, small digital desks out there these days, Mackie DL806, Behringer X-Air 12, Soundcraft UI, amongst others. I still use my Mackie DL1608 for most of the (fairly few) gigs I do these days. The app is the most intuitive of the ones I've tried (disclaimer :- I bought the DL as my first digital mixer so I learned on the Master Fader app, as with DAWs the most 'intuitive' one is the one you started with, there is a learning curve though and digital is not for everyone). I've had the Mackie for, IIRC, 7 years now and would replace it if it died.
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Re: Need the smallest subs

Postby gsc1ugs » Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:12 pm

Seem to change to desks, ok, let me keep it simple, can i use ls400 subs with controller or should i get anither pair subs, weight size is the factor, i heard the id24 system, really small but great sound again small subs
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